Atlantic Canada airport thread

[stephan.richard]

Originally Posted by J81

It wont be AC that is for sure and it wont be an A220. There isnt currently any operator in either airport in Paris that has an aircraft that would viably operate the route aside front ASL and they already fly to St Pierre et Miquelon.

The A321xlr would be ideal 3x weekly and the only airline I can think of that could conceivably entertain the idea is Air Transat and I dont think they have any interest in doing it.

With governmental subsidies and assistance from the private sector you would be able to sustain a route. I remember when Canada 3000 and Corsair offered weekly service to Paris and then over the years Condor offered weekly service from to Hanover Germany. When airlines start researching new markets they look at the history of the people travelling out of Moncton to destinations XYZ. Plus they are also looking who will use destination YXZ as their end destination. The greater advantage by luring Air Canada to do that route would be to ease connectivity in the Star Aliance network in Europe. But the main key to keep this route will be affordability and to have fares that are as competitive to stop people from doing the drive to Halifax. Plus we have other key markets that we could tap in based on the increasing population from these countries India, Mexico, South America, and Africa(but if we have a Paris flight folks could connect there). But the key to success in Paris would be to secure a slot at Charles du Gaules airport versus Orly. But these precious slots come at a huge cost. This is why government funding is crucial to the success of this route and might require 5-15 million dollars wor5n of investments.

[J81]

Originally Posted by stephan.richard

With governmental subsidies and assistance from the private sector you would be able to sustain a route. I remember when Canada 3000 and Corsair offered weekly service to Paris and then over the years Condor offered weekly service from to Hanover Germany. When airlines start researching new markets they look at the history of the people travelling out of Moncton to destinations XYZ. Plus they are also looking who will use destination YXZ as their end destination. The greater advantage by luring Air Canada to do that route would be to ease connectivity in the Star Aliance network in Europe. But the main key to keep this route will be affordability and to have fares that are as competitive to stop people from doing the drive to Halifax. Plus we have other key markets that we could tap in based on the increasing population from these countries India, Mexico, South America, and Africa(but if we have a Paris flight folks could connect there). But the key to success in Paris would be to secure a slot at Charles du Gaules airport versus Orly. But these precious slots come at a huge cost. This is why government funding is crucial to the success of this route and might require 5-15 million dollars wor5n of investments.

If the government has to subsidize it then its not sustainable IMHO. Im not in favour of the government propping a luxury service which is what that would be.

AC wont do it especially since Paris isnt a hub for any Star Alliance partner. Westjet would be a more likely operator since they codeshare with AF/KLM but they already have YHZ-CDG so thats not happening.

I really only see 2 possibilities. Air Transat or Air France and AF is a real longshot. I do hope to see something happen though as i frequent Europe often enough and i hate connecting through YUL or YYZ or in some cases driving to Boston.

[new kid in town]

RAFNB-Méridien 64 is seriously active on social media trying to get people to engage in surveys or discussions on whether Paris-Moncton is viable. I hope we do get the service even if it's a few days a week only. Of course I have no background in aviation finance so this is more me just being optimistic as my wife and I love Paris so much.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

RAFNB-Méridien 64 is seriously active on social media trying to get people to engage in surveys or discussions on whether Paris-Moncton is viable. I hope we do get the service even if it's a few days a week only. Of course I have no background in aviation finance so this is more me just being optimistic as my wife and I love Paris so much.

They should have service from Fredericton as opposed to Moncton. Obviously further from Halifax and not as drivable. Also more central in the province. Heck you might even get American passengers. Is there a place to right this on the survey. Might be more of a sell.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by homebody

They should have service from Fredericton as opposed to Moncton. Obviously further from Halifax and not as drivable. Also more central in the province. Heck you might even get American passengers. Is there a place to right this on the survey. Might be more of a sell.

They are obviously considering the Acadian/francophone connection. The proponents of this petition are a francophone business group. They would naturally consider Moncton over Fredericton.

[new kid in town]

And isn't Moncton the one with the bigger traffic for flights in the province anyway--despite not being central and closer to Halifax?

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

And isn't Moncton the one with the bigger traffic for flights in the province anyway--despite not being central and closer to Halifax?

Moncton Airport is the biggest in the province; so if we were to get a European flight it's natural it would go there. Freddy airport may be further from Halifax and closer to Central New Brunswick; but it just isn't really big enough to support a regular European flight. Moncton makes sense of any of our airports.

[new kid in town]

On that note, given that there are direct flights from Paris to St. Pierre et Miquelon, I wonder if this supports the viability of the route, and whether this will also encourage connections between Moncton and the overseas French territory.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

On that note, given that there are direct flights from Paris to St. Pierre et Miquelon, I wonder if this supports the viability of the route, and whether this will also encourage connections between Moncton and the overseas French territory.

In many ways, I am surprised that Air St. Pierre does not have a flight to Moncton already, although I get the impression they have closer ties to Quebec than to Acadia. I believe there is also a flight to Halifax (probably for international connections). The flight to Paris is a no brainer since St. Pierre is an overseas department of France. This would be considered a domestic flight for them.

[new kid in town]

I completely understand why there are direct flights to Paris and St. Pierre. I wasn't questioning why it exists--because as you said: "no brainer".

I was wondering if that can be an argument to support that a direct flight to Moncton can be sustainable given that the 2 airports are in the same region, and Moncton is a much larger population centre.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Moncton Airport is the biggest in the province; so if we were to get a European flight it's natural it would go there. Freddy airport may be further from Halifax and closer to Central New Brunswick; but it just isn't really big enough to support a regular European flight. Moncton makes sense of any of our airports.

I totally disagree. Moncton could not support that type of flight on its own without taking in the rest of the population of the province. I was simply stating a fact that if you had the flight out of Fredericton, then it would make it much easier to sell it to a company like Air Canada or Air Transat because it was further away from the hub in Halifax. Also, it would be much easier for everybody in the province of New Brunswick to get to Fredericton as opposed to driving to Moncton from Edmunston for example you don’t need a huge airport in order to support a two or three time weekly flight to Paris. The runway at Fredericton international is plenty long enough and I’m quite sure that the terminal could handle the passengers that would be using said flight. Yes, the company might be based on a Moncton but right now the employees are travelling to Halifax or having to do a connecter flight out of Moncton to get to Paris so what would be the difference if they drove an hour up the road to Fredericton as opposed to the two hours to Halifax on a bad day.

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by homebody

I totally disagree. Moncton could not support that type of flight on its own without taking in the rest of the population of the province.

Neither could Fredericton

I understand it's our provincial capital, but the infrastructure, current trends and statistics in terms of aviation traffic, cultural ties all favor the Greater Moncton Area. And while you raise northern NB, I counter you with the entire population of PEI, whose biggest city is also closer to Moncton than Fredericton or Halifax.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Neither could Fredericton

I understand it's our provincial capital, but the infrastructure, current trends and statistics in terms of aviation traffic, cultural ties all favor the Greater Moncton Area. And while you raise northern NB, I counter you with the entire population of PEI, whose biggest city is also closer to Moncton than Fredericton or Halifax.

True enough, but you have to consider Fredericton has very easy access as well off the Trans Canada highway. Current aviation trends don’t really play into the reason why Moncton should be the go to place for a flight like this. As far as the cultural argument goes. If culture had anything to do with it why wouldn’t WestJet put a flight from Moncton- Paris, as opposed to Halifax - Paris it just started recently? Because there’s more French culture in Halifax and there would be in Fredericton? As it stands right now, Charlottetown can travel to two hours to Halifax, maybe even three or do the same amount of travelling to Fredericton. So that argument is kind of a wash.

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by homebody

True enough, but you have to consider Fredericton has very easy access as well off the Trans Canada highway. Current aviation trends don’t really play into the reason why Moncton should be the go to place for a flight like this. As far as the cultural argument goes. If culture had anything to do with it why wouldn’t WestJet put a flight from Moncton- Paris, as opposed to Halifax - Paris it just started recently? Because there’s more French culture in Halifax and there would be in Fredericton? As it stands right now, Charlottetown can travel to two hours to Halifax, maybe even three or do the same amount of travelling to Fredericton. So that argument is kind of a wash.

False equivalence. WestJet has no stake in franco culture vs this company that is French.

If you are calling the distance to travel between the maritime cities pointless, you were the one who started pointing out differences between Northern NB to Fredericton vs. Moncton, or the distance from Halifax. So I guess you need not have raised it to begin with.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

False equivalence. WestJet has no stake in franco culture vs this company that is French.

If you are calling the distance to travel between the maritime cities pointless, you were the one who started pointing out differences between Northern NB to Fredericton vs. Moncton, or the distance from Halifax. So I guess you need not have raised it to begin with.

So this whole flight to Paris thing is based on a Francophone company based out of Moncton that you and some of the people are going to its bidding for?Good luck with that lol. When it comes to distances between cities, I was making reference to the fact that Fredericton is about an hour drive away from both Moncton and Saint John two hours from Edmonton. By locating it further away from Halifax, which, by the way has the only direct flight to Paris (very sore point for Monctonians), the province as whole (Not only Moncton) might have a better chance of securing something like this because it’s not YHZ’s catchment area, Or pretty close to YHZ. All airlines care about is their bottom line and whether or not they are going to make money? This pie in the sky idea that this Francophone company that you mentioned has come up with is never gonna fly(pardon the pun) there’s just not enough people in this company, Moncton, or within an hour of Moncton to warrant a a flight. Especially when you have multiple choices at YHZ. Have a great weekend.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by homebody

True enough, but you have to consider Fredericton has very easy access as well off the Trans Canada highway. Current aviation trends don’t really play into the reason why Moncton should be the go to place for a flight like this. As far as the cultural argument goes. If culture had anything to do with it why wouldn’t WestJet put a flight from Moncton- Paris, as opposed to Halifax - Paris it just started recently? Because there’s more French culture in Halifax and there would be in Fredericton? As it stands right now, Charlottetown can travel to two hours to Halifax, maybe even three or do the same amount of travelling to Fredericton. So that argument is kind of a wash.

While I support YFC, I'll disagree that it is "easy" access from the highway. It is an exit onto a 2 lane road in the middle of the country, that you then turn onto another 2 lane road in the middle of the country to get there. If we had any significant traffic to the airport, it would clog up annoyingly fast. (And coming from Oromocto is basically the same, though you also have to cross a somewhat "rickity" bridge as well).

Compared to YQM with practically direct highway access, it isn't really comparable. Sure YQM isn't directly off the TCH, but you turn off onto another major highway and then turn almost directly to the airport area.

YFC just doesn't have the volume nor the infrastructure to properly attract a European flight at this time and in this environment. YQM may not have it either, but it's an order of magnitude or two closer to reaching that target than YFC is. About the only thing YFC has that would be attractive is that it technically has customs on site, so handling international flights isn't completely off the table at least.

[J81]

Originally Posted by homebody

I totally disagree. Moncton could not support that type of flight on its own without taking in the rest of the population of the province. I was simply stating a fact that if you had the flight out of Fredericton, then it would make it much easier to sell it to a company like Air Canada or Air Transat because it was further away from the hub in Halifax. Also, it would be much easier for everybody in the province of New Brunswick to get to Fredericton as opposed to driving to Moncton from Edmunston for example you don’t need a huge airport in order to support a two or three time weekly flight to Paris. The runway at Fredericton international is plenty long enough and I’m quite sure that the terminal could handle the passengers that would be using said flight. Yes, the company might be based on a Moncton but right now the employees are travelling to Halifax or having to do a connecter flight out of Moncton to get to Paris so what would be the difference if they drove an hour up the road to Fredericton as opposed to the two hours to Halifax on a bad day.

Your arguments are based on your emotions and not facts so I will not address the majority of your statements but I will say this. Moncton supported the services we had to Paris just fine 25 years ago. It started with Canada 3000 on a 757 until they went out of business after 9/11. Then Corsair operated the route out of Orly airport with 747s for a few years followed by their A330s for a couple more years. This all happened 20-25 years ago with aircraft that did not make economical sense and it still lasted a good little stretch. There are much better more economical aircraft for this sort of service today like the A321XLR and 737 max8 that could easily be filled a couple times a week out of Moncton.

Fredericton has never had such a service for a reason.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by homebody

I totally disagree. Moncton could not support that type of flight on its own without taking in the rest of the population of the province. I was simply stating a fact that if you had the flight out of Fredericton, then it would make it much easier to sell it to a company like Air Canada or Air Transat because it was further away from the hub in Halifax. Also, it would be much easier for everybody in the province of New Brunswick to get to Fredericton as opposed to driving to Moncton from Edmunston for example you don’t need a huge airport in order to support a two or three time weekly flight to Paris. The runway at Fredericton international is plenty long enough and I’m quite sure that the terminal could handle the passengers that would be using said flight. Yes, the company might be based on a Moncton but right now the employees are travelling to Halifax or having to do a connecter flight out of Moncton to get to Paris so what would be the difference if they drove an hour up the road to Fredericton as opposed to the two hours to Halifax on a bad day.

Originally Posted by homebody

True enough, but you have to consider Fredericton has very easy access as well off the Trans Canada highway. Current aviation trends don’t really play into the reason why Moncton should be the go to place for a flight like this. As far as the cultural argument goes. If culture had anything to do with it why wouldn’t WestJet put a flight from Moncton- Paris, as opposed to Halifax - Paris it just started recently? Because there’s more French culture in Halifax and there would be in Fredericton? As it stands right now, Charlottetown can travel to two hours to Halifax, maybe even three or do the same amount of travelling to Fredericton. So that argument is kind of a wash.

Originally Posted by homebody

So this whole flight to Paris thing is based on a Francophone company based out of Moncton that you and some of the people are going to its bidding for?Good luck with that lol. When it comes to distances between cities, I was making reference to the fact that Fredericton is about an hour drive away from both Moncton and Saint John two hours from Edmonton. By locating it further away from Halifax, which, by the way has the only direct flight to Paris (very sore point for Monctonians), the province as whole (Not only Moncton) might have a better chance of securing something like this because it’s not YHZ’s catchment area, Or pretty close to YHZ. All airlines care about is their bottom line and whether or not they are going to make money? This pie in the sky idea that this Francophone company that you mentioned has come up with is never gonna fly(pardon the pun) there’s just not enough people in this company, Moncton, or within an hour of Moncton to warrant a a flight. Especially when you have multiple choices at YHZ. Have a great weekend.

homebody has long displayed a severe allergy to YQM, as most people who have followed this thread over the years are well aware.

He is however playing fast and loose with some facts in his arguments.

- The distribution of the francophone population in the province is indeed a factor to be considered in the location of any terminus for a Paris bound flight. About 30% of NBs population is francophone. This is slightly over 250,000 people. Of this, about 110,000 are in southeaster NB. The majority of the rest live on la Peninsule and in the Chaleur region. Their regional service centre is Moncton, not Fredericton.
- Homebody makes the argument of it being a long drive from Edmundston to Moncton. It is, but, it is also a long drive to Fredericton - just as long as the drive from Edmundston to Quebec City. Do you think more people in Edmundston choose to fly out of YQB or YFC? I think you know what the amswer will be.
- He is quite right that WestJet chose to have a direct flight from YHZ to Paris, rather than one from YQM. There is one simple reason for this however, and it was not a snub to YQM. WestJet has chosen YHZ as a hub of sorts for European flights using the 737 Max. There are multiple European destinations operated by WestJet out of YHZ. Using a hub and spoke model, multiple flights from elsewhere in Canada converge on Halifax to make connections with these multiple flights to Europe. This is the reason why the YHZ/CDG flight exists. It makes logistical sense.
- IF a YQM to Paris flight were ever to happen, it would probably be summer seasonal, and probably on a carrier like Air Transat. Neither Air Canada or WestJet would be interested. They are both hub and spoke airlines. Air Transat would be looking at both sides of the equation, not just NBers wanting to go to Paris, but also French citizens wanting to visit Atlantic Canada. Now, you tell me which city and region of the province would be more interesting for a French national to visit - Moncton and the southeast of NB or Fredericton? I think it is pretty obvious.
- Finally, you were playing pretty fast and loose with travel times between Maritime cities. Perhaps you don't know. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but, it is a two hour drive through the wilderness to get to Fredericton from Moncton, not an hour like you stated. Also, YQM is much more convenient to the provincial freeway system than YFC is. In fact, there is a direct airport exit off of Highway 15 right in front of the terminal, and this exit is only about one km from the TCH interchange.

Have a good evening.

[homebody]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

homebody has long displayed a severe allergy to YQM, as most people who have followed this thread over the years are well aware.

He is however playing fast and loose with some facts in his arguments.

- The distribution of the francophone population in the province is indeed a factor to be considered in the location of any terminus for a Paris bound flight. About 30% of NBs population is francophone. This is slightly over 250,000 people. Of this, about 110,000 are in southeaster NB. The majority of the rest live on la Peninsule and in the Chaleur region. Their regional service centre is Moncton, not Fredericton.
- Homebody makes the argument of it being a long drive from Edmundston to Moncton. It is, but, it is also a long drive to Fredericton - just as long as the drive from Edmundston to Quebec City. Do you think more people in Edmundston choose to fly out of YQB or YFC? I think you know what the amswer will be.
- He is quite right that WestJet chose to have a direct flight from YHZ to Paris, rather than one from YQM. There is one simple reason for this however, and it was not a snub to YQM. WestJet has chosen YHZ as a hub of sorts for European flights using the 737 Max. There are multiple European destinations operated by WestJet out of YHZ. Using a hub and spoke model, multiple flights from elsewhere in Canada converge on Halifax to make connections with these multiple flights to Europe. This is the reason why the YHZ/CDG flight exists. It makes logistical sense.
- IF a YQM to Paris flight were ever to happen, it would probably be summer seasonal, and probably on a carrier like Air Transat. Neither Air Canada or WestJet would be interested. They are both hub and spoke airlines. Air Transat would be looking at both sides of the equation, not just NBers wanting to go to Paris, but also French citizens wanting to visit Atlantic Canada. Now, you tell me which city and region of the province would be more interesting for a French national to visit - Moncton and the southeast of NB or Fredericton? I think it is pretty obvious.
- Finally, you were playing pretty fast and loose with travel times between Maritime cities. Perhaps you don't know. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but, it is a two hour drive through the wilderness to get to Fredericton from Moncton, not an hour like you stated. Also, YQM is much more convenient to the provincial freeway system than YFC is. In fact, there is a direct airport exit off of Highway 15 right in front of the terminal, and this exit is only about one km from the TCH interchange.

Have a good evening.

Well MonctonRad now that we have seen your true calling of being a defence lawyer (and not a good one)let me have my rebuttal . If you’re going to call me out and say that I have some sort of allergy to YQM, I guess it would be fairly safe to say that you have an allergy to the rest of the province. If it doesn’t happen in Moncton, it shouldn’t happen anywhere else. You’re extremely biased and smug as most people who follow this thread are well aware of. You have been called out numerous times about this sort of behavior. Look bud. you and your people up in Moncton can do this company’s bidding all you want, but it’s not gonna fly. It doesn’t matter how many Francophones live in and around Moncton. It’s gonna take a lot more than just Francophones to make a flight between Moncton and Paris viable. Lastly, I really don’t think anybody from Paris would stay in Moncton. They would move on to other areas in the Maritimes that have attractions. I don’t think that Magnetic Hill or Parlee Beach would cut it for them. Maybe you could sell them on waiting for the tidal bore to come up the Petitcodiak River :runaway

[homebody]

Originally Posted by J81

Your arguments are based on your emotions and not facts so I will not address the majority of your statements but I will say this. Moncton supported the services we had to Paris just fine 25 years ago. It started with Canada 3000 on a 757 until they went out of business after 9/11. Then Corsair operated the route out of Orly airport with 747s for a few years followed by their A330s for a couple more years. This all happened 20-25 years ago with aircraft that did not make economical sense and it still lasted a good little stretch. There are much better more economical aircraft for this sort of service today like the A321XLR and 737 max8 that could easily be filled a couple times a week out of Moncton.

Fredericton has never had such a service for a reason.

If it was that viable back then and they’re using more fuel, efficient aircraft, etc. Don’t you think that somebody would’ve established the service again from Moncton to Paris?