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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 1:07 PM
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More than half of the world's population now live in urban areas. Roughly 24% of the world population lives in urban areas with one million or more inhabitants.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 2:27 PM
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
Uhhhhh…

The Pacific Northwest coast tribes absolutely had wood frame houses of the same architectural quality found throughout contemporary Europe. These were seafaring people with perhaps the largest craft in the Americas and whose boating tech and capability rivaled (and sometimes exceeded) Europeans’ in the local conditions. The Tlingit defeated Russia in the Tlingit-Russia War of 1802 because of it.
Pacific NW coastal tribes' architecture & maritime prowess and the Tlingit-Russian War of 1802...


All just off the top of your head, right?
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 4:52 PM
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oregonians are like if we get notised a little bit we are happy. i know what you mean. i have a thread that i update everything in the art area. i probably wont update it here because i hate posting. i suck at posting.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 5:06 PM
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this place runs on adds and i had to edit that post. i blame it on the keyboard. ill post stuff and tell you something i guess.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 5:21 PM
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imautistic and had a few beer.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 6:55 PM
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 30, 2026, 8:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Most of what we call "small" cities today would have been considered medium or large cities a couple hundred years ago. In 1800, Beijing was the largest city in the world with a population of just over a million.
Paris and London were the two first cities in human history to reach 2 million people. The 2 million mark was unachievable before the Industrial Revolution and railway transportation (to transport all the food needed for such a massive population).

London reached 2 million in 1836, and Paris in 1858.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2026, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Paris and London were the two first cities in human history to reach 2 million people. The 2 million mark was unachievable before the Industrial Revolution and railway transportation (to transport all the food needed for such a massive population).

London reached 2 million in 1836, and Paris in 1858.
I often romanticize about that era in time..I know that life was still very labour intensive and difficult for city dwellers in both London and Paris, but at the same time they achieved some incredible infrastructure feats..London had a working subway system around then and despite electricity not being invented yet, I believe that most residences and offices had some sort of main gas line feeding their lamps..Also water lines and fire hydrants were established..They were the start of modern cities, and I can only imagine the hustle and bustle they had going in everyday life on their main streets, despite having no traffic lights..All things being relative, I bet that a professional lawyer living in London in 1860 felt every bit like a "modern man", as he came home from a busy day at the office, picked up the daily newspaper and took his wife out shopping at some fashionable stores, or to a play on the weekend.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 2, 2026, 3:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Pacific NW coastal tribes' architecture & maritime prowess and the Tlingit-Russian War of 1802...


All just off the top of your head, right?
Are you intimating I got the info through AI?

Actually not… I’m not the biggest fan of AI, as the info it gives is “the average of everything online.” As far as those in the shed, it’s not a burned up bulb, but it isn’t the brightest light bulb either. I’d rather give my own point of view and have a convo about it with someone who has their own point of view than sit here with all of us discussing the average of everyone’s POV (the AI answer) [which would be boring, no?].

For curiosity sake, I asked chatGPT to rate my earlier reply to Dubu:

Quote:
I’d give it a 7.5/10 as written. The core point is correct—you identified a genuine factual error in the original post—but a few claims are overstated or could be phrased more precisely.

What’s strong:

* You’re right that the claim “no one built houses before then” is simply false.
* The peoples of the Pacific Northwest had permanent settlements with sophisticated plank houses centuries before European arrival.
* Maritime technology was highly developed, including large oceangoing cedar canoes.

What I’d soften:

* “Same architectural quality found throughout contemporary Europe.” That’s subjective and invites an argument over what “quality” means. Better to say they built large, permanent timber plank houses comparable in permanence and engineering sophistication to many European wooden structures.
* “Perhaps the largest craft in the Americas.” This is defensible, but “among the largest watercraft in pre-Columbian North America” is harder to challenge.
* “Rivaled (and sometimes exceeded) Europeans.” This needs context. In the sheltered but often rough waters of the Pacific Northwest, Indigenous canoe design was exceptionally well adapted. Saying they “often outperformed European boats in local conditions” is more defensible than a blanket comparison.
* The reference to the Battle of Sitka (often called the Tlingit-Russian conflict of 1802) is relevant, but saying the Tlingit defeated Russia “because of it” oversimplifies the causes. Their knowledge of the terrain, tactics, and maritime capability all contributed.

A version that’s harder to dispute might be:

Quote:
Uhhhhh…

The Pacific Northwest Coast peoples had permanent timber-plank towns centuries before European settlement. Their large cedar longhouses were sophisticated engineered structures, not temporary shelters. They were also accomplished seafarers whose massive ocean-going canoes were among the largest in the Americas and exceptionally well suited to the Pacific Northwest. The Tlingit even destroyed the Russian post at Sitka in 1802—hardly evidence of a region without settled, technologically capable societies.
I’d rate that version around 9.5/10 because it stays firmly on well-supported historical ground while making the same point.
What I will grant AI is that at least it offered better and more historically accurate pushback than anybody here.
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Houston: 2.4m (+3.9%) + MSA suburbs: 5.4m (+12%) + CSA exurbs: 200k (+5%)
Dallas: 1.3m (+2%) / FtW: 1.0m (+10%) + suburbs: 6.4m (9%) + exurbs: 566k (+9%)
San Antonio: 1.5m (+6%) + MSA suburbs: 1.2m (+10%) + CSA exurbs: 82k (+3%)
Austin: 994k (+3%) + MSA suburbs: 1.6m (+18%)
Texas (whole): 31.29m (+7%) / Texas (balance): 8.6m (+3%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Jul 2, 2026 at 3:34 PM.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 3, 2026, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Razor View Post
I often romanticize about that era in time..I know that life was still very labour intensive and difficult for city dwellers in both London and Paris, but at the same time they achieved some incredible infrastructure feats..London had a working subway system around then and despite electricity not being invented yet, I believe that most residences and offices had some sort of main gas line feeding their lamps..Also water lines and fire hydrants were established..They were the start of modern cities, and I can only imagine the hustle and bustle they had going in everyday life on their main streets, despite having no traffic lights..All things being relative, I bet that a professional lawyer living in London in 1860 felt every bit like a "modern man", as he came home from a busy day at the office, picked up the daily newspaper and took his wife out shopping at some fashionable stores, or to a play on the weekend.
These things (working subway system, gas in the apartments/houses, fire hydrants, etc) are posterior to reaching 2 million.

When London reached 2 million (in 1836), it didn't have a subway system. London had its first underground line when it had 3.35 million inhabitants, and it had a real network with several lines only when it had 4.95 million inhabitants.

Paris had its first Métro line when it had 4.0 million inhabitants (the city was without a Métro for longer than most other cities because the French State and the City of Paris had different ideas about what the subway should look like, either small trains serving stations close to each other only in the city proper as championed by the City of Paris, or large trains serving distant stations going far into the suburbs, as in London and NYC, as championed by the French State, with eventually the French State giving up in 1898 due to the 1900 World Expo that was about to take place and agreeing to the stupidly small Métro project of the City of Paris). And Paris had a real Métro network only when it had 4.55 million inhabitants (Paris started a subway network much later than other cities, but once it started, the city developed it much faster than other cities).

Gas in the apartments/houses only became generalized when London had 6 million inhabitants and when Paris had 3.5 million inhabitants. When London had only 2 million inhabitants (i.e. in 1836), only the main departments stores, theaters, banks, and houses of the aristocracy had gas lighting. The vast majority of the population didn't have it. And when Paris had 2 million inhabitants (in 1858), only the bourgeoisie had gas lighting in their apartments, as well as banks, departments stores, commercial arcades, but the working classes didn't have it.

As for fire hydrants, they became generalized in the streets of London only when London had 5 million inhabitants. In Paris they became generalized when Paris had 3.5 million inhabitants. When London had 2 million inhabitants, the network of water lines and fire hydrants was still rudimentary: old wooden water pipes had just been replaced with cast-iron pipes, but the network wasn't unified, the London urban area was divided between many different water companies, each with different valve sizes, different water pressures, or pressurized water lines only a few hours a day, and only the richest areas (like Mayfair, City of London) had very good coverage (like 80% to 90%), whereas in working-class area less than 10% of streets had water lines and fire hydrants. And even in the rich areas, due to intermittent water pressure, there was no water to extinguish 30% to 40% of fires. It's only really when London reach 5 million inhabitants that London had a modern water network to prevent fires as we think of it today.

As for Paris, when the city reached 2 million inhabitants, it was undergoing massive Haussmannian transformation, with standardized fire hydrants installed below the sidewalks (and not above as in America), and a complete non-drinkable water network created under the streets of Paris (to water and clean the streets, water the gardens, and fight fires), so Paris was ahead of London in this respect, but only the large Haussmannian boulevards and avenues were equipped with this modern network. It took several more decades, until Paris reached 3.5 million inhabitants, before the water network and the fire hydrants covered all streets.

Bottom line: the London of 2 million and the Paris of 2 million were cities on the verge of becoming modern cities, but they were not yet fully modern cities as they would become later in the very end of the 19th centuries. They were still archaic in many ways (hence the Haussmannian works, whereas in London it was more an organic transformation that took place little by little, especially after they unified the urban area by creating the Metropolitan Board of Works in 1856 and the County of London in 1889).
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 4, 2026, 5:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor View Post
I often romanticize about that era in time..I know that life was still very labour intensive and difficult for city dwellers in both London and Paris, but at the same time they achieved some incredible infrastructure feats..London had a working subway system around then and despite electricity not being invented yet, I believe that most residences and offices had some sort of main gas line feeding their lamps..Also water lines and fire hydrants were established..They were the start of modern cities, and I can only imagine the hustle and bustle they had going in everyday life on their main streets, despite having no traffic lights..All things being relative, I bet that a professional lawyer living in London in 1860 felt every bit like a "modern man", as he came home from a busy day at the office, picked up the daily newspaper and took his wife out shopping at some fashionable stores, or to a play on the weekend.

You're right, there will always be an element of romanticism we have for the past, even though we know how brutal it could be. I reckon we will always be wowed by their architecture first and foremost, that we deem so important (rightly so). Their dress, customs and historical events they lived through too, even the bad side has a degree of exoticism.

The streets were rammed -the city grew from 1 million in 1800 to 6.7m a century later:






300,000 horses shat about a 1,000 tonnes of manure onto the streets each day, and each passed about 2 pints of piss, creating a slurry. The animals were worked to death and often abandoned where they lay. With the rising population the Times predicted within 50 years the streets would be drowned under 9ft of manure, though thankfully the omnibus and later, vehicles saved the day.
Heels were fashionable for centuries so that less of the slurry stuck to the sole





Victorian homes all had their 'ground floors' raised to rise above the stench, while the semi-basement suffered.






However, you could live an elegant life, provided infection, pollution and childbirth didn't kill / maim you over the decades. One third of children died before 5, drinking water killed thousands, the paint and substances in the house itself were deadly over time.




And if born poor, life was horrendous and short, albeit with strong community.




Absurdly, their homes nowadays are reserved for millionaires




Crime was not as bad as portrayed -about 75% non-violent (theft, burglary, pickpocketing) and the homicide rate was significantly lower than the centuries before (albeit 45% higher than today, at 1.5 per 100,000 as opposed to 1.04). However, 1/5 of women in the working classes were involved in the sex trade at some point in their lives -about 8% of all women in the city, at any one time. This was actually down from Georgian times, when 20% of all women had worked the industry -not quite the Bridgerton they portray.





And beware of falling into debt, even for the rich. Debtors jails often ran machines that had no purpose but to punish -the scourge of the middle classes:




If you were the half of the population born as a woman, there'd be very few options or choices for you, even if rich. Your marriage was arranged while you were a teenager, if lucky. From thereon you ran the gamut of pregnancy and childbirth, as well as destitution. For men, war and exploration beckoned from the exotic colonies, albeit much less advertised was the fact the average life expectancy out there was short (2 years in India), mainly from tropical diseases.




Nearly 100% of all households drank heavily or used Class A opiates. Laudunum was made of 10% opium and 90% high-proof alcohol, sold at a penny a bottle and cheaper than beer or wine. A working class adult drank 3-6 pints a day, a middle class one 3-5 alcoholic drinks, and upper class 4-6. In short, mass alcoholism and substance abuse.

Last edited by muppet; Jul 5, 2026 at 6:25 AM.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2026, 5:34 PM
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^super interesting and informative post, Muppet!
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell). Sweet Loretta fart thought she was a cleaner, but she was a frying pan. (John Lennon)
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2026, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
Uhhhhh…

The Pacific Northwest coast tribes absolutely had wood frame houses of the same architectural quality found throughout contemporary Europe. These were seafaring people with perhaps the largest craft in the Americas and whose boating tech and capability rivaled (and sometimes exceeded) Europeans’ in the local conditions. The Tlingit defeated Russia in the Tlingit-Russia War of 1802 because of it.
They didn't defeat Russia because of their "boating tech".
1. It wasn't Russia, but Russian-American Company.
2. They mostly employed other Natives in the war, Chugach and Aleuts.
3. Only about ~45 ethnic Russians died in the whole 16 years of the war.

Whenever more than 100 Russians showed up, the Tlingit just abandoned their places/villages and just ran away. None of it was even close to a fair fight.
The Russian American Company learned that they couldn't take over coastal Alaska with just ~500 men. They were simply too overstretched over all kinds of islands. None of the Indian capability or boats rivaled what the Russians had...
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