High Speed Rail in Canada

[MolsonExport]

They've slashed VIA funding for so long that it isn't a viable alternative for most trips, even many of those in the so-called corridor. I discovered that I could not make a day trip to Guelph from London on Via. I used to have about 4 or 5 different options. Likewise, there are far fewer options to get to Toronto by Via than there was a dozen years ago. I used to be able to leave London at 640 am and arrive at Montreal's central station at 235pm. That option is gone. So now I drive when going to Montreal. These are just a few examples.

It seems like successive governments have plotted to let Via die. The service is so spotty that almost nobody considers it a viable alternative.

We have the absolute worst passenger train service/network in the G7, and probably for all developed economies (and for that matter, many developing economies).

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The main difference is that Ontario Northland owns the track as far as Washago, so it can prioritize passenger service over freight. In the maritimes the freight lines are bringing traffic to and from major ports.

The other major difference is that Ontario Northland doesn’t compete with a freeway for most of its trip. Halifax to Moncton is 2 hours by car and 4 hours by train, St John would probably be 8 hours by train. It is not going to get much ridership.

There is nothing stopping provinces in the maritimes from setting up rail services if they want.

I haven't heard the ONR announce that they will give priority to passenger service over freight. They definitely didn't do that before.

The reinstatement of ONR passenger rail service has been controversial from the beginning. Ontario Northland already has bus service. The passenger rail will have a very inconvenient schedule just like it used to. It will be an overnight trip from Timmins (Porcupine) to Toronto.

[TorontoDrew]

The Ontario Northland tracks as far as I recall needed a lot of work and trains can't travel at high speeds on them. Especially north of Washago through Huntsville. Do they use the same line as VIA's cross country train?

source: https://www.ontarionorthland.ca

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A freeway has a lot to do with it. Highways in a northern Ontario are slow and desolate, making the train a more appealing alternative that is probably comparable on the time front. I was going by Google Maps. It had a car trip to Moncton a little over 2 hours and the train a little over 4. If that is the wrong information then please feel free to update.

It's much faster and convenient to drive in Northern Ontario than to take a train. There really isn't much excitement here about the Timmins to Toronto train. The Ford Government has really overestimated what people here think of it.

[TorontoDrew]

Just came across this. Go proposed a route to Sudbury back in 1989.

source: https://pbs.twimg.com

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A freeway has a lot to do with it. Highways in a northern Ontario are slow and desolate, making the train a more appealing alternative that is probably comparable on the time front. I was going by Google Maps. It had a car trip to Moncton a little over 2 hours and the train a little over 4. If that is the wrong information then please feel free to update.

I plan on 2.5 hours to drive to Halifax from Moncton. From Saint John, it would be a four hour drive to Halifax.

I don't dispute the four hour train journey from Moncton to Halifax. If VIA really cared, they would tweak that and cut off 30-45 minutes I'm sure.

There really isn't that much freight traffic on the Moncton/Halifax CNR line to compete will. I doubt there are more than four trains per day. You could easily plan around freight traffic on the route and build a few more sidings if necessary.

Sadly, CNR has actually removed some double trackage on the route, and taken out some sidings as well. This is sad.......

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A freeway has a lot to do with it. Highways in a northern Ontario are slow and desolate, making the train a more appealing alternative that is probably comparable on the time front. I was going by Google Maps. It had a car trip to Moncton a little over 2 hours and the train a little over 4. If that is the wrong information then please feel free to update.

The point being that when there's competition from other modes but a lot more total traffic, you only need a much smaller percentage of total trips to get the same ridership. So no, I disagree about the highway part. Fact is, there are a lot of people who don't have access to cars or who aren't able to drive no matter how wonderful the highway is.

As someone who has driven the Hfx-Moncton highway route countless times, if you're going to exact speed limit it takes a good 2:45:00. Google maps quotes (when I checked a second ago) about 2:34:00 since they use actual observed travel times and average person exceeds the speed limit. But to get it down to 2 hours would be... fast.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There really isn't that much freight traffic on the Moncton/Halifax CNR line to compete will. I doubt there are more than four trains per day. You could easily plan around freight traffic on the route and build a few more sidings if necessary.

Passenger rail for NS is being studied. I wonder if they'll propose an infrastructure improvement plan for Halifax-Truro that generally improves the infrastructure for freight, passengers, and improves resilience (new bridges, remove curves, etc.). There's another question of climate change and sea level rise resilience for the Chignecto isthmus area. There are improvements underway in Halifax to improve rail connectivity between the two container terminals.

Maybe it would be possible to leverage that funding and infrastructure improvement into some extra regional VIA trains, maybe some other services, and generally faster travel.

There's been tremendous growth along this corridor. Not just Halifax and Moncton but along the rail corridor itself in places like Elmsdale that have big developments under construction.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Just came across this. Go proposed a route to Sudbury back in 1989.

source: https://pbs.twimg.com

That was before CN abandoned the Newmarket sub between Barrie and Washago. It would be difficult if not impossible to repurpose the right of way back to rail useage. Both ONR and Via operated trains on the Newmarket sub. Ontario was to cheap to buy the abandoned portion and the feds let CN off the hook to easily.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

The Ontario Northland tracks as far as I recall needed a lot of work and trains can't travel at high speeds on them. Especially north of Washago through Huntsville. Do they use the same line as VIA's cross country train?

source: https://www.ontarionorthland.ca

The ONR now owns the Newmarket sub between Washago and NorthBay. Via uses the Bala sub between Toronto and Capreol passing through Washago. Between approximately CN and CPKC share trackage as far as Coniston (approx).

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I plan on 2.5 hours to drive to Halifax from Moncton. From Saint John, it would be a four hour drive to Halifax.

I don't dispute the four hour train journey from Moncton to Halifax. If VIA really cared, they would tweak that and cut off 30-45 minutes I'm sure.

There really isn't that much freight traffic on the Moncton/Halifax CNR line to compete will. I doubt there are more than four trains per day. You could easily plan around freight traffic on the route and build a few more sidings if necessary.

Sadly, CNR has actually removed some double trackage on the route, and taken out some sidings as well. This is sad.......

The double track right of way still exists so it would not cost too much to install track and signals as long as CN was not doing the construction. To increase speed they need to have a few short sections of double track and more frequent sidings. The double track would allow for more passing at speed.

[J.OT13]

• Video Link

[J81]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

They've slashed VIA funding for so long that it isn't a viable alternative for most trips, even many of those in the so-called corridor. I discovered that I could not make a day trip to Guelph from London on Via. I used to have about 4 or 5 different options. Likewise, there are far fewer options to get to Toronto by Via than there was a dozen years ago. I used to be able to leave London at 640 am and arrive at Montreal's central station at 235pm. That option is gone. So now I drive when going to Montreal. These are just a few examples.

It seems like successive governments have plotted to let Via die. The service is so spotty that almost nobody considers it a viable alternative.

We have the absolute worst passenger train service/network in the G7, and probably for all developed economies (and for that matter, many developing economies).

The problem with a lot of commenters on here is that a lot of what is said is not based on fact.

Yes you can still make a day trip to Guelph from London. Jump on 84 in the morning to Guelph and then catch 87 back that evening. Its been like that for years with the exception of maybe during covid the times changed a bit.

Also, unless you are going way way back before my time there, you could never leave London on 82 and connect with 62 in Toronto to make it to Montreal because 62 leaves before 82 is scheduled into Union station. 82 is timed for business travellers heading to work in Toronto, not connections. The earliest connection from London to Montreal was from 70 to 64. It has been that way for decades.

[J81]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I plan on 2.5 hours to drive to Halifax from Moncton. From Saint John, it would be a four hour drive to Halifax.

I don't dispute the four hour train journey from Moncton to Halifax. If VIA really cared, they would tweak that and cut off 30-45 minutes I'm sure.

There really isn't that much freight traffic on the Moncton/Halifax CNR line to compete will. I doubt there are more than four trains per day. You could easily plan around freight traffic on the route and build a few more sidings if necessary.

Sadly, CNR has actually removed some double trackage on the route, and taken out some sidings as well. This is sad.......

There isnt 30-45 minutes to cut between Moncton and Halifax. You cant go faster than the speed limits imposed by CN who own the track. Its 189 miles from Moncton to Halifax and the average speed is 45-50mph plus station stops in Sackville, Amherst and Truro. The time enroute will never be faster than what it is on that section. But its only an hour longer than it takes to drive but you dont have to worry about paying for parking your car downtown.

The really sad part is that you cannot leave Moncton on Friday afternoon and go to Halifax for the weekend on the train. I did that a few times prior to 2012 and it was great.

Currently, if CNs freight trains are relatively “on time”, Via’s train doesnt meet any trains in either direction. There are occasions when meets do happen and for the most part do not cost more than 15 minutes.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by J81

There isnt 30-45 minutes to cut between Moncton and Halifax. You cant go faster than the speed limits imposed by CN who own the track. Its 189 miles from Moncton to Halifax and the average speed is 45-50mph plus station stops in Sackville, Amherst and Truro. The time enroute will never be faster than what it is on that section. But its only an hour longer than it takes to drive but you dont have to worry about paying for parking your car downtown.

The really sad part is that you cannot leave Moncton on Friday afternoon and go to Halifax for the weekend on the train. I did that a few times prior to 2012 and it was great.

Currently, if CNs freight trains are relatively “on time”, Via’s train doesnt meet any trains in either direction. There are occasions when meets do happen and for the most part do not cost more than 15 minutes.

While I’d love to see daily passenger rail service between Saint John, Moncton, and Halifax, couldn’t we just invest in much better bus services?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by J81

The really sad part is that you cannot leave Moncton on Friday afternoon and go to Halifax for the weekend on the train. I did that a few times prior to 2012 and it was great.

I have heard the service cuts didn't yield a lot of savings because of fixed costs and the loss in ridership offsetting relatively modest operational savings. You can really screw yourself if you cut service by half but cut usefulness by 90%.

The reasons for train vs. bus are that the train is more comfortable, you can work on it more easily, and it avoids and helps with congestion, which is increasingly bad around Halifax. It may also be better in bad weather.

Presumably the speeds could go up if the infrastructure were improved.

[Nouvellecosse]

I remember when there was a discussion about the Halifax to NB rail corridor in another thread maybe a year or two ago. We were able to see that the biggest time villain was the stretch between Truro and Amherst and it was pretty obvious that this was at least partially due to the route being much more meandering and therefore longer than the road. That is mainly because of the Cobequid Hills that the highways cross at gradients too steep for the train. It would be expensive to make a straighter route since it would likely require tunnels and viaducts, although that doesn't mean it can't be done of course.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I think that’s a good point about cost savings… how much are we really saving the taxpayers by running the ocean 3 or 4 times a week or whatever it is, versus 6-7 days a week.

As for bus vs train, I think we need to see increased investments in both. There’s lots of places where trains are not viable in the Maritimes where they’ve ripped up railways or left them to rot (like Fredericton and the Annapolis Valley)

If Tim Houston and Susan Holt want to turn the Maritimes into a “wind superpower” or energy superpower as Holt put it, a future where we have all electric busses traveling in between the Maritimes largest CMA’s, and beyond, really shouldn’t be that far away.





The barrier to entry for a maritime wide electric bus network is substantial lower than it would be for a maritime wide electrified rail network, or reinvesting in “traditional” passenger rail connected to Fredericton and the Annapolis Valley. Ideally, anyone in the maritime’s 5 other “major” metropolitan areas should be able to jump on a bus that leads to Halifax, on a network that connects the 6 “major” Maritime metropolitan areas… or is it 7 if we include Truro now?

A better maritime wide bus service needs to happen sooner than later, and that service should be scheduled to mesh with the crossings of the oceanic ferries that connect Nova Scotia with New Brunswick, PEI, and Newfoundland.

Finally, there’s a huge, untapped market of American tourists in the Northeast and New England that would love to visit Canada’s ocean playground without a car, but currently there’s no bus service between the Maritimes and US Northeast… just the CAT ferry between Bar Harbour, ME and Yarmouth, NS… and no bus service onwards to Halifax for American tourists that would like to visit the biggest city on Canada’s east coast without their cars, a rental car, or taking a flight.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I remember when there was a discussion about the Halifax to NB rail corridor in another thread maybe a year or two ago. We were able to see that the biggest time villain was the stretch between Truro and Amherst and it was pretty obvious that this was at least partially due to the route being much more meandering and therefore longer than the road. That is mainly because of the Cobequid Hills that the highways cross at gradients too steep for the train. It would be expensive to make a straighter route since it would likely require tunnels and viaducts, although that doesn't mean it can't be done of course.

I bet if Canada had consistently invested in gradual infrastructure improvements, the annual price wouldn't have been that steep, but over a 30-50 year time frame the speed and reliability improvements would have added up substantially.

[J81]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I remember when there was a discussion about the Halifax to NB rail corridor in another thread maybe a year or two ago. We were able to see that the biggest time villain was the stretch between Truro and Amherst and it was pretty obvious that this was at least partially due to the route being much more meandering and therefore longer than the road. That is mainly because of the Cobequid Hills that the highways cross at gradients too steep for the train. It would be expensive to make a straighter route since it would likely require tunnels and viaducts, although that doesn't mean it can't be done of course.

You are 100% correct. The train also loses a lot of time meandering through the urban areas. It takes 20 minutes to exit Halifax station to Rockingham. It is also 10mph through Truro. 30mph through Amherst and Sackville. Those are where the biggest gains could be made with infrastructure improvements.