HRM Planning Should Be Ashamed

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, as Keith mentioned, it’s the sheer number that has stressed our housing, services, employment situation, etc. The problem exists when trying to discuss as a specific issue there will always be those who believe that it’s a thinly veiled racist discussion. In fact sometimes there seems to be those who appear to seek it out.

Honestly, the 10 years of Trudeau reign feels like a waste of time and energy, and now we are scrambling to undo the damage, but we are in too deep for it to be a quick fix. So I can totally empathize with those who are unhappy with the situation. It has caused objective, palpable problems for many.

For some segment of society, immigration will always be an inflammatory issue but I think the nature of that has changed from what it once was (those opposed to certain ethnic groups or whatever) to one asking broader questions about sheer numbers and the consequences thereof. Our present conundrum began in the waning days of the tiring Harper govt who didn’t do an awful job for much of their time but who people had gotten tired of. Since the NDP were not seen as a viable alternative nationally that meant we got Trudeau Jr who as it turned out, wasn’t ready for prime time.

I don’t know what policy papers were presented or what think- tank lobbyists whispered into JT’s ear but he bought what they were selling and opened the doors. What nobody seemed to consider was our capacity to accommodate them. You can only build housing in so many places, so fast. There are only so many entry level jobs. I don’t know what language skills training was part of the deal either but I’m guessing in many cases there wasn’t much. For HRM what we have is the built fabric of the city being ripped apart with certain neighborhoods becoming unrecognizable from what they were just a few years ago, with prices that are out of reach for many and jobs paying salaries that would let one afford them in short supply. It has been a mess. And I wish I had a magic solution, but I don’t.

[kzt79]

Until just a couple of years ago, even the most mild questioning of immigration numbers was often met with howls of “RACIST!” in many quarters. This stifled meaningful debate and helped directly fuel the crisis.

Ironically, some of the loudest voices on the left/woke/etc movement are among those paying the heaviest price for these destructive policies. It would almost be funny if it weren’t so sad.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don’t know what policy papers were presented or what think- tank lobbyists whispered into JT’s ear but he bought what they were selling and opened the doors.

It was in part the firm McKinsey. There is an article here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mckinsey-immigration-consulting-contracts-trudeau-1.6703626

It was all questionable and it doesn't seem good that it quietly slipped away as an issue when Carney arrived. For example, former Liberal cabinet minister and now CBU president Mr. Dingwall oversaw a huge explosion in enrollment. How CBU managed to meaningfully scale up instruction to thousands in a couple years is a mystery to me. And I think some "institutions of higher learning" of the Hollywood Upstairs Medical College variety may have made CBU look like Harvard. Millions were collected in fees from these students, and in some cases it was probably the life savings of families in countries like India.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Since the NDP were not seen as a viable alternative nationally that meant we got Trudeau Jr who as it turned out, wasn’t ready for prime time.

I am not a political scientist or expert but I've heard this traces back to the Liberal (and maybe other) party structure where they form a committee that has veto power over every nomination. The leader (JT) appoints a chair who can "fire" anybody from the Liberal party. Hence the PMs tend not to face internal party revolts.

It is apparently different in the UK and you are more likely to hear MPs in a party talk about resignations when the leader/PM screws up, e.g., Liz Truss. People didn't like short-term fallout from a budget. She was not exactly tremendously charismatic but I don't think she was found do have done an Arabian Nights number or oversaw 6-figure speaking engagement payouts of taxpayer dollars to relatives. It's ironic how the JT era was marked by so much cancel culture of everybody but the guy at the top who you'd think would be held to the highest standard.

There's also something off about Canadian society where so many are sheepishly convinced by moralizing arguments that can distract from simple, practical, objective problems.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don’t know what policy papers were presented or what think- tank lobbyists whispered into JT’s ear but he bought what they were selling and opened the doors. What nobody seemed to consider was our capacity to accommodate them. You can only build housing in so many places, so fast. There are only so many entry level jobs. I don’t know what language skills training was part of the deal either but I’m guessing in many cases there wasn’t much. For HRM what we have is the built fabric of the city being ripped apart with certain neighborhoods becoming unrecognizable from what they were just a few years ago, with prices that are out of reach for many and jobs paying salaries that would let one afford them in short supply. It has been a mess. And I wish I had a magic solution, but I don’t.

Well allow me to share some insight to that Liberal process. A friend of mine is an Immigration Officer here in Halifax and is especially gifted in investigating Immigration fraud. Back in November 2021 She, along with the entire Country's immigration Officers were called to a National Conference call hosted by the Deputy Minister . The DM was hosting the call to share minister Frasers plans for 2022 and beyond. The DM prefaced the call by reminding everyone that they were Professionals and were to be respectful.
The DM went on to explain that the Government had a plan to out the Conservatives as the racist anti Immigration Party that they KNEW them to be. They were planning to double Immigration to 800,000 for the first six months of 22 and if the expected Conservative response did not happen they would allow another 400,000 in.

My friend said She has never participated in a riot before but did that day online. The meeting soon descended into bedlam as the DM could not answer where the Job's, Homes, Doctors,Teachers were going to come from. The DM finished the meeting by saying the decision was final. And here we are.The Liberals savior has quietly repudiated almost all of Trudeau's policies and Carney yells at the former Trudeau MP'S.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by kzt79

Until just a couple of years ago, even the most mild questioning of immigration numbers was often met with howls of “RACIST!” in many quarters. This stifled meaningful debate and helped directly fuel the crisis.

Of course that's easy to claim when we can't actually see what what a person is referring to as "mild questioning". I've seen a lot of exchanges in which people get all indignant and claim they were "only asking questions" when called out for asking very leading questions and making loaded comments clearly intended to direct discussion is a particular direction. Especially if the person has a history of making questionable statements around the topic. People don't get as much benefit of the doubt in that case because there's less doubt to benefit from.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Of course that's easy to claim when we can't actually see what what a person is referring to as "mild questioning". I've seen a lot of exchanges in which people get all indignant and claim they were "only asking questions" when called out for asking very leading questions and making loaded comments clearly intended to direct discussion is a particular direction. Especially if the person has a history of making questionable statements around the topic. People don't get as much benefit of the doubt in that case because there's less doubt to benefit from.

In BC, SFU urban studies professor Andy Yan was accused of anti-Chinese racism (I think maybe by the mayor and some real estate people?) due to housing-related studies. As far as I know there was no evidence whatsoever of any racism on his part. To me it's a textbook example of the weaponization of racism accusations not to discourage racism but to shut down discussion of a valid topic.

[JET]

I hate to interrupt the immigrant bashing, but to try to get back on track,
There is a new infill on 89 Prince Albert road in Dartmouth, it is 3 stories and looks great, nice finishes, even in a tight parking lot.
https://www.zzap.ca/new-project-pages/89-prince-albert

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JET

There is a new infill on 89 Prince Albert road in Dartmouth, it is 3 stories and looks great, nice finishes, even in a tight parking lot.
https://www.zzap.ca/new-project-pages/89-prince-albert

I think the issue in HRM is that the rules in these areas don't weed out some bad proposals. It is up to the developer, and there are plenty of good ones who create attractive and financially viable developments. It is a sign that this apartment building on Jubilee probably didn't need to look like an industrial building.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by someone123

In BC, SFU urban studies professor Andy Yan was accused of anti-Chinese racism (I think maybe by the mayor and some real estate people?) due to housing-related studies. As far as I know there was no evidence whatsoever of any racism on his part. To me it's a textbook example of the weaponization of racism accusations not to discourage racism but to shut down discussion of a valid topic.

I didn't mean to imply there are no examples of people being called out inappropriately. In a country of tends of millions on a planet of billions you can find examples of every type of human behaviour. I've just observed a lot more people complaining about legitimate objections than illegitimate ones. Like orders of magnitude more.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I didn't mean to imply there are no examples of people being called out inappropriately. In a country of tends of millions on a planet of billions you can find examples of every type of human behaviour. I've just observed a lot more people complaining about legitimate objections than illegitimate ones. Like orders of magnitude more.

I bet you are right, but these things coexist and can both be bad. Institutionally in Canada I think the "chilling effect" (that has influence far beyond what plays out publicly) has been the more significant for a while. Well, probably for as long as there has been politics, to different degrees and about different issues. This is why it's important to protect freedom of speech carefully.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JET

I hate to interrupt the immigrant bashing

Really?

[JET]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Really?

Fair dues, I should have been more explicit that I was being sarcastic.

While many of us have reasonable concerns about how immigration occurs,
my issue is when there are derogatory comments directed at particular immigrant groups, in my mind that is where racism presents itself. I believe that one of our moderators has cautioned this group about that.

To be clear, I have never been concerned about your comments in this area Mark, you are always fair and even handed.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JET

While many of us have reasonable concerns about how immigration occurs,
my issue is when there are derogatory comments directed at particular immigrant groups, in my mind that is where racism presents itself. I believe that one of our moderators has cautioned this group about that.

I have just re-read all 4 pages of comments in this topic. I have seen no derogatory comments directed at any immigrant groups. To the contrary, I found the discussion quite fair and balanced, to coin a phrase, and it has managed to avoid that sort of targeting in a rather admirable manner IMO.

Please cite what specific examples you are referring to.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The flood of unchecked immigration is very unsettling. Not because they are immigrants, because we have always had that and by and large they were a net plus both economically and culturally. But the ridiculous and apparently unmanaged numbers arriving are doing great harm to society. The other week I was at No Frills on Wyse Rd and I’m not exaggerating when I say I felt like I was the only native-born person in the place along with the only English-speaking customer based on the conversations I overheard in the aisles. It was jarring.

Keith, do you not see this as immigrant bashing?

[MastClimberPro]

Originally Posted by JET

Keith, do you not see this as immigrant bashing?

I don't see anything to be concerned about in Keith's comment. I guess if one was seeing/hearing a deluge of orders of magnitude more dog whistles and other subtle (and not-so-subtle) xenophobic commentary maybe one could be excused for jumping to an ungenerous conclusion. But in my opinion that's what you are doing in this specific case. Noticing that one is surrounded by a demography quite different (older, whiter, younger, diverse-er) than what one would reasonably expect 10-20 years ago isn't problematic on its face.

Now, there are definitely instances when I hear comments like this that are coupled with other comments that are unambiguously racist, but each statement has to be taken on its face in its actual context. No harm, no foul here as far as I can see.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JET

Fair dues, I should have been more explicit that I was being sarcastic.

While many of us have reasonable concerns about how immigration occurs,
my issue is when there are derogatory comments directed at particular immigrant groups, in my mind that is where racism presents itself. I believe that one of our moderators has cautioned this group about that.

To be clear, I have never been concerned about your comments in this area Mark, you are always fair and even handed.

Fair enough. I understand that you were stepping in where you felt that a line was being crossed.

It was initially a little jarring after all the discussion regarding legitimate objective concerns on unfettered population increase without adequate planning for it, and all the problems we have endured with housing, stressed services (medical, for example), employment, and even relatively minor issues like traffic (though still a very palpable and relatable issue). There is truly a grey area, where complaining about the situation may seem like complaining about the people, since the massive influx of people is at the root of the issue. I would hope that most of us understand that the politics are the real problem, and the people who came here, presumably many with elevated expectations that were not possible to achieve, are victims of the politics as well.

I think that the conversation has been reasonable and fair on balance (and educational in some cases).

Just wanted you to know why I responded as I did. All good here.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JET

Keith, do you not see this as immigrant bashing?

No.

Most of the time I feel badly for them being sold what increasingly looks like a bill of goods by Our Federal Government.

[someone123]

It is a tougher topic that often can't be grappled with in Canada, but it's also not necessarily racist to want to conserve something about the place you live in or your culture. "I don't like that I go to the grocery store and nobody speaks English anymore" is a hypothetical valid opinion to have for non-racist reasons and it can be grounded in accurate observation.

Not sure if it could be said to be accurate around the Halifax area anywhere, but that is a question that can be dealt with directly rather than shut down with accusations of racism. In other words, the healthier objection is "the vast majority do speak English", not "shut up you racist".

One red flag I think is that the government did agree its own immigrant policy was too much but it's still hard to say that the now-reduced prior level of immigration was causing problems such as high housing costs. It's just obviously true that Canada has a certain capacity to absorb newcomers, it also depends on the people who come (like how good their English is and their education/skill level), and there is definitely a level that's "too high". Canada obviously can't support 10 million per year for example. It's not racist to debate 300k vs. 1 million, which is whether Canada should have one of the higher immigration rates in the world or go way above that as an outlier.

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by JET

I hate to interrupt the immigrant bashing, but to try to get back on track,
There is a new infill on 89 Prince Albert road in Dartmouth, it is 3 stories and looks great, nice finishes, even in a tight parking lot.
https://www.zzap.ca/new-project-pages/89-prince-albert

I don't think anyone here is bashing immigrants, at least I hope not! There has been some valid criticism of stupid and destructive government policy. Not that many years ago, Canada had a functioning and balanced immigration system that was widely recognized (for its positive features). Hard to believe how quickly they turned it into a disaster, and a lesson that we should be careful not to take anything for granted.

Back on topic, I agree that building looks decent.