Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Nouvellecosse]

For me it's a hard pass. Just because it's investor funded doesn't negate the importance of major destinations adhering to sound planning practices. Clearly the investor expects to be making a hefty profit, so they'll be pulling in huge revenues from it decades after the initial cost has been recovered while the municipality is left to deal with the negative externalities the entire time. The municipality be paying for the roads and infrastructure connections to integrate the site with the rest of the grid, and paying the significantly higher than average subsidy per transit ride. And any additional developments that it attracts will continue to encourage auto-centricity.

[MonctonRad]

The stadium proposal for by the airport in Halifax opens up an interesting debate over whether any prospective CFL team will be a Halifax team or a Maritimes team.

A stadium on the Halifax peninsula complicates things for football fans elsewhere in the region. The peninsula is relatively inaccessible (only five points of entry), already has insane traffic congestion, and has extremely limited parking. Urban purists will of course argue that people should be taking transit to go to events like this anyway, but, this argument only works if you are already a resident of Halifax (and preferably a peninsular Haligonian). Fans from outside Halifax have very little option to attend games other than taking their own personal automobile. Intercity public transportation in the Maritimes is virtually nonexistent.

An airport location opens up the football market to arguably an additional 400,000 people or so. For greater Moncton (200,000 people in the CMA), an airport location means the regional (if it is regional) football team would now only be a two hour drive, and, with the prospect of abundant parking available when you get there. Such ease of access might even let some Monctonians consider the possibility of being seasons ticket holders. This is not a small thing for a franchise that otherwise might have borderline profitability.

A peninsular Halifax team would mean that for a Monctonian, the drive would increase to at least 2.5 hours, followed by a nightmarish drive on the peninsula and no guarantee of finding a parking spot in reasonable distance from the stadium. It makes one think twice about attending games on a regular basis, and means that on average, you would be looking at making it a "special event", staying overnight at a downtown hotel and boosting the cost of attending the game by at least several hundred dollars. This would be a non-starter for many fans.

For non-Haligonians, an airport location is much more convenient. So, what is it Halifax? Will this be a Halifax team or a regional team? Enquiring minds would like to know.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

For non-Haligonians, an airport location is much more convenient. So, what is it Halifax? Will this be a Halifax team or a regional team? Enquiring minds would like to know.

I don't think it needs to be specifically the peninsula as there is a big difference between something being right in the middle of town and a being half hour into the wilderness. But to answer the question, it will be a regional team in a Halifax location meaning the rest of the region will either accept a less convenient location or voluntarily lose access.

There are also such things as parking garages that don't require vast landscapes of paved surfaces. And there are also shuttle buses that transport people from parking facilities to the final location. Which may not be as convenient for them, but I'm not interested in designing Halifax facilities to cater to out of town car traffic. I also think it's a little bit silly to worry about traffic congestion which is mostly a peak-period thing when there's no reason to assume the games would be during weekday rush hours. If they were, I assume most people across the region who can afford to drive down would be working anyway.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

it will be a regional team in a Halifax location meaning the rest of the region will either accept a less convenient location or voluntarily lose access..

So, let them eat cake then.

Typical Halifax centrism.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The stadium proposal for by the airport in Halifax opens up an interesting debate over whether any prospective CFL team will be a Halifax team or a Maritimes team.

A stadium on the Halifax peninsula complicates things for football fans elsewhere in the region. The peninsula is relatively inaccessible (only five points of entry), already has insane traffic congestion, and has extremely limited parking. Urban purists will of course argue that people should be taking transit to go to events like this anyway, but, this argument only works if you are already a resident of Halifax (and preferably a peninsular Haligonian). Fans from outside Halifax have very little option to attend games other than taking their own personal automobile. Intercity public transportation in the Maritimes is virtually nonexistent.

An airport location opens up the football market to arguably an additional 400,000 people or so. For greater Moncton (200,000 people in the CMA), an airport location means the regional (if it is regional) football team would now only be a two hour drive, and, with the prospect of abundant parking available when you get there. Such ease of access might even let some Monctonians consider the possibility of being seasons ticket holders. This is not a small thing for a franchise that otherwise might have borderline profitability.

A peninsular Halifax team would mean that for a Monctonian, the drive would increase to at least 2.5 hours, followed by a nightmarish drive on the peninsula and no guarantee of finding a parking spot in reasonable distance from the stadium. It makes one think twice about attending games on a regular basis, and means that on average, you would be looking at making it a "special event", staying overnight at a downtown hotel and boosting the cost of attending the game by at least several hundred dollars. This would be a non-starter for many fans.

For non-Haligonians, an airport location is much more convenient. So, what is it Halifax? Will this be a Halifax team or a regional team? Enquiring minds would like to know.

As a non Maritimer, that's an angle I don't often think of. Thanks for reminding us. That also explains the abundant hotels in the proposal.

To Nouvelleecosse's point on transit, that's less of an issue if transit is included on the ticket prices. Might not cover everything, but a good chunk.

An intermediate location, not on the peninsula, but closer than the airport site, might be a good compromise. They seem to be open to a different site.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

So, let them eat cake then.

Typical Halifax centrism.

Please. What you're suggesting is designing our facilities for people with access to cars while letting those who don't eat cake, including the ones in the same region. Designing things for the convenience of those with cars is the self-centered, affluent position so you don't get to pretend to be victims. Especially when there are countless times when they're more than willing to write off non-car facilities as being a lower priority than car access whenever there's any conflict - real or imagined - between the two. But if the many car-free people in the city would need to take shuttle buses to get there, then people coming from elsewhere are just as capable of parking and taking a shuttle bus to the final location. So no, I'm not interesting in having a large number of HRM residents eat cake just to accommodate affluent out of towners which is what we're talking about. It's people of above average affluence who would be buying tickets to major league sports games and driving for hours from places like NB then feeling entitled enough to expect it to be served to them on a silver platter so they don't need to experience the horrors of going into town.

And let's just address the elephant in the room. There are certain people who look for any excuse for things to accommodate cars. And they often pretend that car convenience is necessary when in reality it's just more convenient for them (and less convenient and/or safe for others). But there are plenty of facilities in Halifax, including some right on the peninsula like the major hospital complexes, most of the universities, and the Metro Centre that serve people from outside the local area without them being in the middle of nowhere.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

For me it's a hard pass. Just because it's investor funded doesn't negate the importance of major destinations adhering to sound planning practices. Clearly the investor expects to be making a hefty profit, so they'll be pulling in huge revenues from it decades after the initial cost has been recovered while the municipality is left to deal with the negative externalities the entire time. The municipality be paying for the roads and infrastructure connections to integrate the site with the rest of the grid, and paying the significantly higher than average subsidy per transit ride. And any additional developments that it attracts will continue to encourage auto-centricity.

/\ This.

It would be very bad city planning to entrench Halifax auto-centricity for a stadium that'll be in use for maybe 30 days a year if we assume 9 to 11 CFL games a year, 14 CPL games, a handful of international events and summer concerts. From what lazy AI bothered to determine they estimated 15-20 days for Regina's Mosaic stadium and 30-40 days a year for Toronto's BMO field. It would be even more insane to prefer a location that would better meet the commuting needs of a few hundred to a few thousand out of towners (depending on the event) for these handful of days at the logistical expense and subsidized cost of Haligonians.

Also I would be very wary of an American firm with little to no track record (as far as I can see) promising the world and parking lot nirvana.

I'd rather see Halifax hold out for a downtown/near downtown location and not make the same mistake that Ottawa did with the hockey arena. Any future stadium should be a net benefit for the residents of Halifax, not a risky real estate play or an easy car trip for people from out of the city or in another province.

[J.OT13]

Relevant to the conversation, the "expert" on this news story thinks that BC Place is in a terrible location. "sandwiched between highways", I don't think he even bothered Googling the site; the Dunsmuir and W Georgia viaducts he's probably referring to are no more than elevated streets from an unbuilt highway that could very well be demolished within the decade.

He seems to want the American style stadium in a field surrounded by parking for the "full experience... tailgating where the match is only one part of it" as if restaurants and bars within walking distance aren't part of the experience we're missing when we're only driving to and from the place.

He seems to also think getting 70k-80k people, again I don't think he Googled BC Place Stadium to see the actually capacity, out of the place is easier by car than, I don't know, a grid of streets leading patrons to two rapid transit lines, and again restaurants and bars where they can hang out to avoid the rush.

• Video Link

The location of the Sens' Palladium has always been a major hurdle to convince fans to make the trek. There's no a single bar or restaurant within walking distance outside the actual arena. It's all parking, up to 500 meters away. You drive in, and then you drive out, taking 30-60 minutes just to get out of the parking lot. That's why we're so excited about the prospect of the new LeBreton arena, where transit will be 200-250 meters from the door, and it sounds it will be at least covered if not climate controlled. And if you want to avoid the rush, there will be bars and restaurants on site. For those more adventurous, they can walk to bar districts in Hull or Little Italy (on the street named for Lord Stanley of Preston), or take the train a few stops to Elgin or the ByWard Market.

With all that said, to reiterate my previous comment, a Halifax team is different if we're looking to attract fans from the rest of the Maritimes. There's a difference between an existing stadium and a new one. There's a difference between an arena with 150-200 event nights vs a stadium with 20 to 50. Ottawa's needs a convenient spot for the people of Ottawa and Gatineau, while the current spot is well off centre of the potential fan base. The Halifax stadium could be a bit outside the city to attract Maritimers from farther afield while still being near being near existing infra and transit, and add a bit of an entertainment district (which was the plan for the Palladium, but rejected by the Bob Rae Government), which can only work if it's supported outside event days as well (like Lansdowne in a dense downtown-adjacent neighbourhood).

I don't think the airport business park is a good spot, but it doesn't necessarily need to be downtown. A compromise can be found.

[MonctonRad]

It's all psychology really. Many Maritimers see Haligonians as the entitled fat cats, with the worst being the peninsular types who think that the known world ends at Quinpool Road. Anything in the suburbs is beyond the pale, let alone anything north or west of Truro. These are the people who think that the only real Maritimes is visible from the crest of Citadel Hill, with anything out of sight being infested by evil sea creatures and monsters. they claim to be Maritimers, but, in general are as far removed from the actual travails of real Maritimers as can be considered humanly possible.

An actual arena belongs downtown. An arena is an important economic engine for the core of any city (even Halifax). an arena can be busy 100 nights per year (between hockey, other sporting activities, special events and concerts). A facility like this forms an important symbiosis with adjacent hotels and restaurants. They create a self fulfilling ecosystem,

A football stadium is not the same thing at all. It mat be busy 10-15 times per year, and lies dormant the remainder of the time. It would have a different relationship with the surrounding downtown core. A downtown stadium is akin to a "space occupying process" as we know it in medicine. If you have pleural fluid in the chest displacing and compressing the lung, this will impair function and lead to respiratory distress. An empty stadium in the core is similar. It occupies otherwise useful space (except for those 10-15 dates when it is busy).

Stadiums belong in the suburbs (and exurbs). Arenas belong downtown. A CFL team is a regional enterprise. It needs to be convenient to everyone in the region. For anyone outside the Halifax peninsula, a downtown stadium would be inconvenient and inaccessible.

If Haligonians insist on a location on the peninsula then just be honest, and call the new CFL team the Halifax Schooners. Don't you dare call them the Atlantic Schooners when it is most definitely not a team for all of Atlantic Canada.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

Unfortunately just because a site is big doesn’t mean that a stadium can easily be built there. There are always considerations that have to be made regarding prior land use, environment, and geology, and sometimes that throws a wrench into things, especially when trying to build a stadium on properties that have been in use for a long time (don’t ask me how I know this lol).

This is true but these sites went through years of study with at times a lot of public funding secured for construction, so I would imagine they got past this point. I think the real reason the old Commonwealth Games build died was scope creep (with the proposed budget ballooning up to over $1B or so in around 2005).

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

An airport location opens up the football market to arguably an additional 400,000 people or so.

A site like Shannon Park or even one by any highway but just a bit closer in would have a lot of these advantages but be more accessible for people living in the city. However, if this private developer does end up building their plan with little input from the municipality or province, it goes where it goes, basically.

There would be room to do things like improve transit service and the design of the plan. But watching the news coverage of this there's an almost fetishistic angle around how it will use "zero public dollars" and how great that is.

I think it's reasonable to assume attendance at a venue drops off quickly with distance and cost getting there, so improving the 2-4 hour drive people by 30 minutes is less impactful than a 15 minute vs 45 minute travel time for locals.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's all psychology really. Many Maritimers see Haligonians as the entitled fat cats, with the worst being the peninsular types who think that the known world ends at Quinpool Road. Anything in the suburbs is beyond the pale, let alone anything north or west of Truro. These are the people who think that the only real Maritimes is visible from the crest of Citadel Hill, with anything out of sight being infested by evil sea creatures and monsters. they claim to be Maritimers, but, in general are as far removed from the actual travails of real Maritimers as can be considered humanly possible.

An actual arena belongs downtown. An arena is an important economic engine for the core of any city (even Halifax). an arena can be busy 100 nights per year (between hockey, other sporting activities, special events and concerts). A facility like this forms an important symbiosis with adjacent hotels and restaurants. They create a self fulfilling ecosystem,

A football stadium is not the same thing at all. It mat be busy 10-15 times per year, and lies dormant the remainder of the time. It would have a different relationship with the surrounding downtown core. A downtown stadium is akin to a "space occupying process" as we know it in medicine. If you have pleural fluid in the chest displacing and compressing the lung, this will impair function and lead to respiratory distress. An empty stadium in the core is similar. It occupies otherwise useful space (except for those 10-15 dates when it is busy).

Stadiums belong in the suburbs (and exurbs). Arenas belong downtown. A CFL team is a regional enterprise. It needs to be convenient to everyone in the region. For anyone outside the Halifax peninsula, a downtown stadium would be inconvenient and inaccessible.

If Haligonians insist on a location on the peninsula then just be honest, and call the new CFL team the Halifax Schooners. Don't you dare call them the Atlantic Schooners when it is most definitely not a team for all of Atlantic Canada.

I say don’t call them the Atlantic Schooners either way… as that team name isn’t one with decades of brand recognition like some claim, but rather, it’s a brand name associated with decades of failed plans and non existence.

Schooners is still a fine team name, but the team should named as a Halifax, or Nova Scotia team… call it what it will be, not what it won’t be. Moreover, I think trying to brand them as an Atlantic Canada wide team somewhat closes the door to further CFL expansion into the Maritime market, of which Moncton/New Brunswick is the most likely market after Halifax/Nova Scotia. So I think it just wouldn’t be very smart long term thinking for the CFL to allow this team to be branded as an Atlantic Canada wide, or Maritime wide team.

You bring up some interesting points on the benefits of a stadium in the suburbs/exurbs, but I’d also say they’re quite American centric points, and if you look to the great football stadiums of Europe, many are located well within urban areas, and very few are located in what could be considered suburban or exurban locations. I think I basically agree that a football stadium isn’t used that much outside of soccer and football season, along with some major concerts, so building it within the urban core could be considered poor land use in the middle of a housing crisis. However, there’s gotta be lots of locations a lot closer to the center of the HRM than this proposed location near the airport.

Though, as someone who doesn’t live in Halifax, but does live in the Maritimes where Halifax International is the only major airport in the region, I selfishly sort of want them to build the stadium at this location near the airport on the hope that it could lead to better interprovincial bus services between YHZ and the rest of the Maritimes.

[someone123]

We will see what they do but I think there is a big disconnect between the way a lot of people around the region talk about this stuff, which often seems to be based around emotions or very old views, and what the economics are like today.

Looking just at NS, there tends to be disproportionate attention given to small towns and rural areas relative to how much they could contribute to ticket sales at a venue. There's a fallacy, sometimes explicit, sometimes implicit, that the "real" NS is rural and so putting things in the city shuts out other areas. Halifax has about half of the province's population, more than half of the economy, almost all of the growth, and is the single easiest place for the majority of people in the province to get to. 3 major highways radiate out of the city and around 70% of the province lives either in the city or within about an hour or so along those highways.

It's a bit different when you talk about the Maritimes as a whole but still not really that different. NS has a majority of the region's population, no other market in the region is comparable, and the city is the region's hub for tourism and air travel. That's not meant to put any other place down... it just is what it is.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's a bit different when you talk about the Maritimes as a whole but still not really that different. NS has a majority of the region's population, no other market in the region is comparable, and the city is the region's hub for tourism and air travel. That's not meant to put any other place down... it just is what it is.

You're overstating Halifax’s dominance here. Nova Scotia may still be the largest province in the Maritimes at about 1.1 million, but New Brunswick is nearing 900k and PEI is around 200k, so the population gap isn’t nearly what it once was. Moncton CMA is pushing 200k, Saint John CMA is around 150k, and Fredericton adds another major urban centre which is now on the heels of Saint John... together southern/central NB is broadly comparable to Halifax’s metro population. Halifax is still the largest single city and regional hub, but it’s not as if the rest of the Maritimes are insignificant or economically irrelevant. Saint John in particular has a disproportionately strong industrial and corporate base (Cooke, JDI, Irving Oil, Ocean Capital Holdings, Moosehead), even if Halifax remains the larger and more diversified urban economy.

[Djeffery]

I think it's silly to build in a location that's easier for the 200,000 people 2 hours away and harder for the 500,000 right there. I think the airport location would cost them more Halifax support than it will gain them "rest of the Maritimes" support. It will be a Halifax team no matter what name they slap on it but I do think it's funny that the Moncton people would take offense to a team being called Atlantic, as if Halifax isn't, you know, right on the Atlantic. I suppose the Lions should be required to change their name to the Vancouver Lions.

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I think it's silly to build in a location that's easier for the 200,000 people 2 hours away and harder for the 500,000 right there. I think the airport location would cost them more Halifax support than it will gain them "rest of the Maritimes" support. It will be a Halifax team no matter what name they slap on it but I do think it's funny that the Moncton people would take offense to a team being called Atlantic, as if Halifax isn't, you know, right on the Atlantic. I suppose the Lions should be required to change their name to the Vancouver Lions.

While there’s always some regional rivalry in the Maritimes, people here are also protective of the Maritime identity and quick to point out when others misunderstand it or automatically lump Newfoundland in. There’s banter, sure, but regional teams do not erase local pride. In many cases, they strengthen it.

New England is a good example. People in Boston, Maine, Vermont, and Rhode Island all have their own identities and rivalries, but they still rally around the New England Patriots as a regional brand. Support for the Patriots, Bruins, Celtics and particularly the Red Sox extends deep into the Maritimes due to the strong historical ties that go back before confederation.

Maritimers know the rest of Canada often misunderstands the region, and there is actually a certain pride in that shared identity. So the idea that Atlantic or a regional brand would somehow offend people simply because the team is physically in Halifax seems overstated. Halifax can still function as the region’s largest city while representing something bigger than itself.

[NewIreland]

People keep talking as if an airport stadium automatically means endless traffic and everyone driving out there, but one thing that gets overlooked is that the rail corridor is already right there. The CN main line runs through Windsor Junction and Wellington and passes close to the Aerotech area before reaching the airport. That means the proposed stadium site would actually come before the airport stop, not after it.

If a stadium were built around Aerotech Drive, you could realistically design a commuter rail line using the existing rail bed with stations at logical points instead of creating a brand new corridor from scratch.

A route could look something like:

Halifax (downtown rail station)
Rockingham / Bedford South
Bedford Commons area
Windsor Junction
Fall River
Wellington
Aerotech / Stadium district
Airport terminal
Enfield park and ride

That makes a lot of sense because the stadium stop would sit just off the existing corridor near Wellington, only a short spur or station connection away depending on the exact alignment, while the airport could remain the next stop further up the line.

This would not just be about football games either. It could function as real regional commuter rail serving Halifax commuters, Fall River and Enfield residents, airport passengers, and event traffic on game days or concerts.

The key point is that the rail bed already exists. Halifax would not be inventing a transit corridor from scratch. The corridor is there now. The opportunity would be upgrading it for passenger use, adding stations, and creating a short connection to serve Aerotech and eventually the airport.

That seems a lot more forward-thinking than pretending the only option is thousands of cars backed up on game day.

[Djeffery]

I love the idea of commuter rail but the business case needs to be based on airport traffic. Best case, this stadium sees half a million people a year. When I leave a Leafs game, there is a multitude of transit options right there. I don't know what kind of capacity a commuter train from, downtown Halifax to YHZ would carry, but I can't imagine it being more than a few hundred people every half hour (The UP in Toronto seats 173 according to google and on game days, maybe the same number standing). Most of the 25,000 people going to an airport area stadium are going to necessarily drive, there just isn't the constant traffic to justify large capacity mass transit that far out.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

I don’t think we need GTA population densities to make commuter rail to an airport make sense, especially if it connected many other cities in the Maritimes to the regions one true major airport. The stadium being connected by rail would just be the bonus. I’m not sure why anyone would want to drive to a CFL soccer game or concert when the average expectation to drink at such events would post most people well over the legal limit to drive.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

While there’s always some regional rivalry in the Maritimes, people here are also protective of the Maritime identity and quick to point out when others misunderstand it or automatically lump Newfoundland in. There’s banter, sure, but regional teams do not erase local pride. In many cases, they strengthen it.

New England is a good example. People in Boston, Maine, Vermont, and Rhode Island all have their own identities and rivalries, but they still rally around the New England Patriots as a regional brand. Support for the Patriots, Bruins, Celtics and particularly the Red Sox extends deep into the Maritimes due to the strong historical ties that go back before confederation.

Maritimers know the rest of Canada often misunderstands the region, and there is actually a certain pride in that shared identity. So the idea that Atlantic or a regional brand would somehow offend people simply because the team is physically in Halifax seems overstated. Halifax can still function as the region’s largest city while representing something bigger than itself.

The best rivalry in the CFL is Saskatchewan vs Winnipeg in the prairies… the CFL would be foolish to not try and replicate this rivalry in the Maritimes with New Brunswick vs Halifax.

The NFL is a whole other level of money and investment, as are the NBA, MLB, and NHL. There’s no good reason New Brunswick couldn’t support a CFL team in Moncton if their population continues to grow and New Brunswick as a whole passes a million like Saskatchewan did not that long ago.

I’d never support a Halifax CFL simply because they chose to name the team after Atlantic Canada or the Maritimes instead of after Halifax or Nova Scotia.

Halifax getting a CFL team shouldn’t close the door to New Brunswick getting a CFL team… it should open the door, since the CFL is a league that depends on regional rivalries.