STL- The Beautiful & The Broken

[OakAngeles]

Anyway, I'm interested to hear your "armchair" takes.

It’s interesting because I mirror most of the same sentiments as yours but sort of in a geographically reversed order. Maybe just bc I’m an outsider without a personal attachment to the East Side, but I would start by going all in on the Forest Park adjacent neighborhoods, followed by Midtown and then finally the East Side. The Riverfront area grew when it was the center of the Metro and when the Mississippi was a far more crucial transit hub than it is currently. But with very little population left to the North or East, DT isn’t commercially viable on its own at the moment.

The CWE, however is far more central to population centers of the greater metro and developments are clearly seeing a greater ROI. If the city builds up its tax base to the West first, I don’t think it will be swimming upstream for funding projects on the East Side into the future, and maybe more residential projects DT could finally be realized rather than getting stuck in development hell.

In point 4 you mention smaller developments being prioritized and I couldn’t agree more. Both large scale developments and refurbishments are prone to stalling when funding disappears, but smaller projects that require less overhead could be far more viable. Personally I think infill similar to this (which I see all over Chicago) would be quicker to build, more cohesive with the existing neighborhoods and most importantly give people the chance for property ownership which would be a big plus in a country where home ownership is rapidly declining.



Curious, do you think the city should continue pushing projects that try to emulate historical brick architecture or try to do modern styles like this?

As for transit: again, same sentiments but reverse order. Also, as much as I love trains I think Bus Rapid Transit Lines have a way higher chance of getting built right now and could maybe get upgraded to light rail or tram lines in the future once there's proof of ridership. I would first build a BRT line from the Maplewood blue line station, east along Manchester toward Forest Park and then up Kingshighway to at least MLK. I think the area south of Forest Park could be great for some 3-5 story apartments and the Northern end for smaller infill

Next, I would propose a line along Grand from Tower Grove Park to Fairgrounds Park which would tie in the Arts District/SLU. After that, a line along Lindell/Olive from Forest Park to the Arch with maybe 5 stops tops at key high traffic locations. Lastly, I think once the West Side is a bit more tied together, a N/S line along the riverfront would be able to support some larger projects like what is happening around Ballpark Village.
Here’s a VERY crude MS Paint representation of what I’m thinking



As for Point 1, I definitely think it’s necessary but may have to be integrated neighborhood by neighborhood otherwise the pricetag to implement it city wide would be prohibitive. Maybe some of those thoroughfares could be good for transit lines, they definitely have the space for it. Florissant near Crown Candy is huge but had like one car on it at a time.

For Point 2, I’m hardly an expert on property law but I know Detroit implemented something similar and it seemed to have very positive results.

One kind of left field thing I think the city should do is start promoting individual neighborhoods to visitors rather than the whole city. It took me doing serious ‘urbanism nerd’ levels of research to find out that places like Lafayette/Soulard/ CWE existed. I think if these places were promoted without the preconceived feelings people have toward the city as a whole, it would allow people to dip their toe into exploring the city and then maybe come back later to check out more rather than writing off the whole city from the jump.

[meh]

^ Thanks for the ideas! As soon as I get a few minutes to formulate a coherent response I'm gonna get back to you. There's a fair amount of that sort of infill (first image) going on throughout the south side (not so much 3-story but lots of 2-story). I'll share some photos ASAP.

[Dogtownbnr]

Originally Posted by plinko

I don’t have much experience with St Louis and sadly haven’t been there since 1994(!). Seems like a city that both is a treasure trove but also still struggles a bit. I have two colleagues who went to Wash U who rave about how interesting it is.

Maybe I need a trip for a Cardinals game…

Great photos as always.

Honest question: is St Louis the most struggling big city in the US? You can find so many thing about other rust belt cities and their metro areas that seem to be righting themselves. Honestly I cannot think of much for STL (admittedly ignorant).

So, I will try to answer this.

STL is one of only 2 large US cities in the US that is still an independent city, separated from the larger (more wealthy St. Louis County). STL City makes up roughly 11% of the metro population of just under 3M people. The City itself is a tiny 62 sq. miles. The oldest, most impoverished areas in North City & some in South City make up a portion of that. Lots of old warehouses & factories dot these areas, many of which are too far gone. Bad, corrupt government has festered for decades due to the flight of residents across the county line into St. Louis, Jefferson & most notably St. Charles County, which has far surpassed the population of the City proper. St. Louis County alone is close to a million people. St. Charles County is growing exponentially. STL also has downtown Clayton, which is the county seat for STL County. This is created by the City County divide. Both areas compete for businesses & projects. Clayton has seen a lot of residential & mixed use mid-high rise over the years, while Downtown has seen less. The flight to the surrounding burbs has created a tax base issue, but the combo of Rams settlement & federal covid related funds has the City flush with cash. Then in the spring of 2025 a massive tornado destroyed large areas of an already struggling North STL. This is coming off of the covid hangover that downtown STL has suffered from. With such a focus on office, downtown partially emptied due to hybrid & work from home policies. Companies like AT&T, US Bank, Bank of America, etc. to name a few went hybrid hurting the office related traffic. Then the supporting businesses like restaurants close as a result. Now saying all of the, the MAIN part of the CBD is rather small, but shows the most struggle post-covid. That has led to some businesses to flee to Clayton, etc. The crime issue was most noticeable during covid when the offices were empty. I believe the crime issue is mostly perception now, but that is hard to fix if businesses aren't flocking downtown. STL has close to 20 Fortune 500-1000 companies & several massive private companies like Edward Jones, World Wide Technology & Enterprise. None of them besides Stifel choose to be located Downtown. They are either in Clayton, Westport or suburban office parks. Now Chesterfield MO, a large wealthy suburb is creating a true "downtown" with mid-high rise buildings. This will just be another drain on Downtown STL.

Now, on to the future & the positives. The former Millennium Hotel site is being torn down for an amazing mixed use development featuring a 45 story town, multiple mid-rise buildings & a concert venue. This is near the Ballpark Village area, which is thriving. The burned out complex is over a billion dollar project south of downtown that will likely forge on without the older brick structures. The old May Company HQ (Railway Exchange) is a huge focus of the current mayor & City leaders. I think this will get rehabbed soon. It is currently an eyesore. If you drive a few minutes west, you get into Downtown West where the new MLS soccer stadium, Union Station & lots of new developments have flourished. If you keep driving west, you get to the Central West End where the City Foundry & new high rise welcomes you to the area. The CWE is still one of the coolest urban neighborhoods in the country. Then further west, you get to Forest Park, Washington University, The University City Loop & eventually Clayton. That drive from Downtown to Clayton is ultra-dense, ultra-cool & amazing. From neighborhoods like Soulard, Benton Park, Compton Heights, Lafayette Square, Tower Grove, The Hill, Dogtown, the Grove, Old North, DeBaliviere Place, I could go on, the City is amazing. Are there problems, of course. North & some parts of South City need help, but for the most part, STL City is a treasure-trove nowhere near the low-points Detroit hit. The big issue is past corrupt government, bad policy, suburban flight, competing interests (County vs. City) & old, expensive to rehab building stock. The crime issue (some real, some just perception) have hurt the City. The County vs. City mentality in general hurts the City. I know of many that are doing great things to bring the City of St. Louis back. It will take work with Covid & tornado setbacks, but it has always been a City of innovation & comeback stories.

There is WAY MORE to the story, but that gives you some background.

Sorry for the book, but I felt the need to tell the story.

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by meh

^ Thanks for the ideas! As soon as I get a few minutes to formulate a coherent response I'm gonna get back to you. There's a fair amount of that sort of infill (first image) going on throughout the south side (not so much 3-story but lots of 2-story). I'll share some photos ASAP.

Would love to check that out when you have time! There's a time and place for large apartment projects but imo those smaller infill do a much better job & I'm glad to hear STL is pushing for them

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by Dogtownbnr

STL is one of only 2 large US cities in the US that is still an independent city, separated from the larger (more wealthy St. Louis County).

...

Then in the spring of 2025 a massive tornado destroyed large areas of an already struggling North STL. This is coming off of the covid hangover that downtown STL has suffered from.
.

Thanks for the lowdown From what I've seen, it does seem like the city/county divide is maybe the biggest factor holding STL back and is sadly probably the hardest to undo.
Learning about the city's history was fascinating because it went through most of the same problems as anywhere else in the 50s/60s but being unable to annex the suburbs in the way other places did really did leave a tremendous negative impact going forward

I also did see some of the tornado damage around Debaliviere Place and it was no joke, but thankfully I did see a lot of rehabbing taking place at least in the areas around Forest Park. Not sure if some of the areas further North will see as much tlc but im hoping there is an effort to rebuild/ rehab as much as possible.

The city definitely has an uphill battle in front of it, but its clear a lot of locals deeply love the city and are pulling for it. I'm very curious to see what Downtown's future as a residential core could look like. I am also curious about the area around Laclede's Landing as a residential center. It seemed fairly quiet when i visited but I know there are a lot of condo/apartment projects in the works in that area. Any insight into the growth of residential in that neighborhood that you could share? Both days that I visited were blisteringly cold and one was a holiday, so it was hard to gauge foot traffic when people weren't exactly out in droves

[Six Corners]

I’ll add a couple of other issues St. Louis is up against regarding population. First, while international migration is the "secret sauce" for growth in a lot of urban cores, St. Louis just struggles to attract immigrants for some reason. Our Hispanic population, for example, is small compared to most other metros. There are signs that’s changing, but the Census data has been all over the place lately, showing huge spikes one year and drops the next, so it’s hard to know what's going on

The second issue is aging. The Central Corridor and the inner-ring suburbs are actually doing well at attracting transplants, but the metro population overall is flatlining because we’re literally dying off. Our birth rate and migration aren't keeping up with the death rate. Local demographers think that as the population gets older, the death rate will keep creeping up, and we'll keep losing people unless we find a way to get more people to move (or be born) here.

And sorry to be "that guy" for a minute, but I want to clarify a point about our government structure. We are indeed one of only two major "independent cities" (along with Baltimore) where the city itself handles all the county functions.

However, there’s a nuance with places like Denver and San Francisco. They are "city-counties," meaning there is still a "county" on paper, but it’s merged with the city—they share boundaries and offices. Then you have DC, which is a city, county, and state all rolled into one. My point is that other core cities have made this unified model work (though Denver did annex a massive chunk of Adams County to build DIA in the 90s, giving them room for some suburban-style growth as a byproduct).

The problem is we just tend to shoot ourselves in the foot when it comes to regional cooperation. To Dogtown's point, we don't play well together. St. Louis County and the City work fairly well together, in the way that many divorced parents try to work together to for the benefit of their children. St. Charles County acts like a preteen who thinks they’re fully independent and doesn't need their parents. Jefferson County treats itself like a rural escape for people who hate the city (but still use it for work and other amenities), so they aren't much help either. Our best allies might actually be the Illinois counties, but everyone forgets them because of the state line and the "perception issue" with East St. Louis.

[begratto]

Thanks for the photothread.

St. Louis reminds me of a distopian Montreal. It's as if the Dementors sucked the life away from the streets and let it decay for 50-60 years. Really strange, as it seems to have "good bones", a somewhat similar architecture. The central city was emptied out of its commercial activity to the benefit of the suburbs, I imagine?

[Dogtownbnr]

Originally Posted by begratto

Thanks for the photothread.

St. Louis reminds me of a distopian Montreal. It's as if the Dementors sucked the life away from the streets and let it decay for 50-60 years. Really strange, as it seems to have "good bones", a somewhat similar architecture. The central city was emptied out of its commercial activity to the benefit of the suburbs, I imagine?

STL is not as bad as you described. What is considered the CBD is actually fairly small, in relation to greater Downtown. The part of the CBD that is in need of some life is even smaller. The part of the CBD district in question has older office space. The office space emptied after Covid. Then went the immediate supporting businesses & restaurants. The massive Railway Exchange building went empty when Macy's moved out vestiges of the old May Company. As we know, Macy's is struggling. The AT&T Tower (larger tower) emptied out into the adjacent tower & throughout the metro area. The others moved to Dallas when SBC was bought by AT&T. There was a lot of office space emptied in favor of remote work, as is the case throughout the country. Peabody Energy just announced a move to the burbs. Several law firms moved to the burbs. 2 local news stations moved, one to the burbs, one out of Downtown, but in the City. During covid, the popularity of short term rentals exploded. Teens would promote huge parties & of course it usually led to a fight &/or shooting. The visuals on the local news of fights, parties, motorcycle & 4-wheeler packs, speeding cars, etc. all the while, a decimated police dept. (Nationwide problem) not only made people feel unsafe, but gave downtown a much worse reputation than it deserves now. The City has changed the laws on short-term rentals & crime is now down. However, downtown STL is having a tough issue shaking the "unsafe image". That along with remote work, disjointed leadership & bad PR, has hurt downtown's ability to rise from the post-covid ashes.

A few things of note. "Downtown CBD" might encompass 14 blocks east-west & 12 blocks north-south. That area has had challenges, but it is not all abandoned & burned out. The odd thing is the fact that Downtown West (very close to downtown) & the Central West End are not included as part of "Downtown per se'. Those areas are doing well IMO & have seen many more developments & projects. That being said, the Ballpark Village part of Downtown is doing well with the Millennium project & BPV. I think it will take Downtown boosters, regional politicians & public perception to change the narrative & move things forward. I see signs of positivity. Time will tell.

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by Six Corners

Our birth rate and migration aren't keeping up with the death rate.

This is an interesting point, since I know this was a growing problem that I saw in Portland post covid as well. The birth rate there is very, very low but since it spent decades as the hip place to move to, the population kept growing. During the lull in migration during covid though, this had an amplified effect as there isn’t a natural, localized source for population growth.

Especially for older cities like STL who reached their peak at a time when families frequently included 5-6 kids or more, I imagine this change in birth rates can cause the population to deflate enormously compared to newer cities like Vegas/Phoenix that saw population growth during the modern era of people having one or two kids if they're having any at all.

St. Louis just struggles to attract immigrants for some reason. Our Hispanic population, for example, is small compared to most other metros.

I did notice this when taking the bus through Benton Park West. I saw it described as the Hispanic center of the city but only saw a few businesses catering to that community. Coming from California, I definitely am used to a different level of diversity than what I’ve seen in Middle America, but I was surprised by the lack of ethnic enclaves for a larger city. I hope in the future that the city sees a growth in immigration, since I think it would be very beneficial, especially as the cost of living in coastal cities has become prohibitively expensive for new arrivals.

St. Louis County and the City work fairly well together, in the way that many divorced parents try to work together to for the benefit of their children.

That’s just a damn funny analogy. No notes

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by begratto

St. Louis reminds me of a distopian Montreal. It's as if the Dementors sucked the life away from the streets and let it decay for 50-60 years. Really strange, as it seems to have "good bones", a somewhat similar architecture. The central city was emptied out of its commercial activity to the benefit of the suburbs, I imagine?

To echo Dogtown’s Point, it does seem like largely a post covid situation. My first time in the city was this trip in November but if you look back in time on google maps, it does seem like downtown was thriving during the 2010s. Maybe a local can confirm or deny this, but it seems like the city even had a bit of a renaissance around 2015-ish?

That being said, there has been a lot of emptying out of the city core to the suburbs for a while and Clayton (a suburb to the West) did seem to have a more robust office crowd.

Some of these photos might not represent the normal day in the CBD as well. Overall it did feel fairly empty, and the number of open restaurants/ stores did drop off the closer to the River that I went, however there are a few factors that make these pics feel especially bleak. I generally try to focus on buildings rather than people and usually wait until there is no one in frame to take photos. The one exception in this thread is the businessman walking in front of the barricaded & tagged up Railway Exchange Building. That one was purposeful just because I thought it made for a good shot. Both trips were also during extreme cold snaps when no one was outside, and the first trip was during a holiday when many office workers would have been off. I won’t lie, I did feel a vibe similar to your description the first time I visited, but the 2nd trip lined up with a big convention in town, and I did see a big upswell in visitors toward the end of that trip.

This moment does feel like a nexus point for downtown, and I do think that another round of restoration may be coming soon along with some big developments, but obviously we'll have to wait and see.

[geomorph]

You found both the opulence and grit of the architecture of yesteryear!

[xzmattzx]

Great pictures!

Round 2 certainly has more bombed-out places, like the St. Louis in National Lampoon's Vacation.

A lot of the buildings, neighborhoods, and places piqued my interest. Where is that neighborhood with the Trapper's Cottage? What is that oldest soda fountain in St. Louis? Where/what is that building with the cast iron column that you showed twice, the second time with the optician? Where are some of these magnificent churches, some of which are gutted?

I love that picture of the Gateway Arch framed in that brick arch.

[OakAngeles]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Great pictures!

Round 2 certainly has more bombed-out places, like the St. Louis in National Lampoon's Vacation.

A lot of the buildings, neighborhoods, and places piqued my interest. Where is that neighborhood with the Trapper's Cottage? What is that oldest soda fountain in St. Louis? Where/what is that building with the cast iron column that you showed twice, the second time with the optician? Where are some of these magnificent churches, some of which are gutted?

I love that picture of the Gateway Arch framed in that brick arch.

Glad you checked it out! Also, I just googled that clip from Ntl Lampoon Theres definitely some neighborhood gems if you ever get a chance to visit. The Trappers Cottage is at 811 Allen Ave in Soulard. The oldest soda fountain is at Crown Candy Kitchen & the 'optician' building is The Chemical Building at 721 Olive.

As for the churches, the really big one with the gold ceiling is the Cathedral Basilica of STL. The one next to the (now burnt down) Crunden Martin Warehouse is the St. Mary of Victories Church
There's 3 pictured from Soulard which are St. Peter & Paul, the 9th Street Abbey and St. John Nepomuk. Toward the end of Part 1 is a cluster of them in the 'Holy Corners Historic District'

In Round 2, the Christ Church Cathedral shows up a few times, including the "Thy Kingdom Come" photo. The burnt out church is St. Liborius, former home of the Sk8 Liborius Skatepark, RIP. The one by the Arch is the Basilica of STL (not to be confused with the Cathedral Basilica from before) St Francis Xavier is the one on the SLU campus, the "Spring Church" is the one with no roof & lastly theres St Agatha next to the Anheuser Busch Brewery
Didn't realize how many churches I photographed til listing them out

Thanks about the Arch photo. Ill admit that Im pretty sure I've seen that shot taken by someone else before but I was there anyway and the sun was setting at a good angle so I went for it haha