Urban Canada: Why do people gravitate to the south end of their respective cities?

[SignalHillHiker]

I recall learning somewhere, years ago, that it's primarily a result of the industrial revolution and prevailing winds. As industrial pollution increased, the prevailing winds primarily carried it north and east from city cores, which made the south and west more desirable. Now that visible pollution is less of a concern, I imagine it continues through inertia (class, infratructure, yada yada).

[MolsonExport]

How could one gravitate to the south end of Toronto (unless you have gills or want to live on a boat, or are one of the lucky few hundred living on the Toronto islands).

Montreal's south is Pointe St. Charles...which was an economically-deprived neighborhood for more than a century. For decades, Montreal's north shore (La Couronne Nord ou Rive-Nord) grew much faster than the south shore.

The "best" neighborhoods in the city where I now live are in the northern parts of the city (London). Which is also growing faster than its southern reaches. I am pretty sure this is also the case with KWC.

North Vancouver (and adjacent west Vancouver, which is to the north of the city) is far wealthier than just about any other part of Vancouver.

I'd say there is little merit in the thesis being advanced.

Now, if it were about "East vs. West" parts of a city...

[someone123]

Back in the 70s there was a plan to develop south of Halifax but most of this development never happened. NIMBYism blocked the Northwest Arm bridge, the Armdale Rotary became congested, and some other areas were strategically blocked off as parks.

There was also a plan for a third harbour crossing that would have connected from around the South End container terminal over to the Eastern Passage side. This even popped up again as a tunnel proposal maybe around 2010 or so, but it was never built.

Instead, Bedford ended up with explosive growth.


(Source: Halifax Regional Municipality)

[someone123]

This is more of a tangent but I found this other city plan that contrasts with the one above. It is actually from 1912. It's remarkable how little growth there was between 1912 and the 1970s, an era when most Canadian cities hugely expanded. If Halifax had grown like Toronto or Montreal in the 1910s and 20s, some of those mainland areas would have been built out with "streetcar suburbs" and old brick apartment buildings during that time, and there probably would have been some kind of Northwest Arm crossing. Instead, the Halifax Explosion happened, the 20s were a lost decade, and even by the 30s and 40s there were just a few more blocks of modest detached houses.

[Glow Fun City]

Vancouver has sprawled to the south and east due to the lack of mountains and water in those directions, but our most dense areas are actually in the northwest corner of the Burrard Peninsula:



Image credit: Sean James with data from Statistics Canada 2021 Census
https://censusmapper.ca/maps/4453#10/49.1952/-122.7667

[WhipperSnapper]

What are the odds that a city or two or three all expand in the same direction? This truly inspires indepth analysis as we see with a page or two of follow up posts of "not this city"

[Docere]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

How could one gravitate to the south end of Toronto (unless you have gills or want to live on a boat, or are one of the lucky few hundred living on the Toronto islands).

Montreal's south is Pointe St. Charles...which was an economically-deprived neighborhood for more than a century. For decades, Montreal's north shore (La Couronne Nord ou Rive-Nord) grew much faster than the south shore.

The "best" neighborhoods in the city where I now live are in the northern parts of the city (London). Which is also growing faster than its southern reaches. I am pretty sure this is also the case with KWC.

North Vancouver (and adjacent west Vancouver, which is to the north of the city) is far wealthier than just about any other part of Vancouver.

I'd say there is little merit in the thesis being advanced.

Now, if it were about "East vs. West" parts of a city...

Vancouver has pretty strong geographic constraints, mountainous north (which is very desirable) and of course there's no "western suburbs." So the growth is south (right to the US border) and east.

[MolsonExport]

yes, I spent 5 years in living in Vancouver (Vancouver then Richmond) and working in and around it (Vancouver, then Burnaby, then Richmond, then Surrey, then back to Vancouver, then back to Surrey).

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

North end of Calgary:
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1858581,..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1805465,..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.1177804,..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.159958,-..._ep=EgoyMDI2MDQyOC4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D

Well I am not denying Calgary is growing in all quadrants. The fact is, it's growing fastest in the south. We have to keep in mind that Calgary doubled it population in the past 25 years.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I recall learning somewhere, years ago, that it's primarily a result of the industrial revolution and prevailing winds. As industrial pollution increased, the prevailing winds primarily carried it north and east from city cores, which made the south and west more desirable. Now that visible pollution is less of a concern, I imagine it continues through inertia (class, infratructure, yada yada).

Thank you, I never knew that.

Yes, Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary have very nice neighborhoods in the Southwest.

[Docere]

GTA population in north, west and east sectors (2021 census):

Western suburbs (Peel, Halton): 2,047,659
Northern suburbs (York Region): 1,173,334
Eastern suburbs (Durham Region): 696,692

With city of Toronto included:

West (including Etobicoke/York Community Council Area): 2,646,759
North (including North York Community Council Area): 1,820,579
East (including Scarborough): 1,320,302
South (Toronto Islands): 602

[Docere]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I recall learning somewhere, years ago, that it's primarily a result of the industrial revolution and prevailing winds. As industrial pollution increased, the prevailing winds primarily carried it north and east from city cores, which made the south and west more desirable. Now that visible pollution is less of a concern, I imagine it continues through inertia (class, infratructure, yada yada).

This seems true of a lot of Canadian cities (and European ones, though not really in the US). Montreal and Vancouver are certainly known for their east/west divides.

Doesn't really seem to be the case in Toronto though, or is only partly the case. There isn't a major socioeconomic difference between the east and west ends. The former borough of York is lower income than East York and was historically more of an industrial area. But certainly Etobicoke is more desirable than Scarborough overall. And it does apply in the 905 (desirable Oakville vs. more working class Ajax say).

[biguc]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I recall learning somewhere, years ago, that it's primarily a result of the industrial revolution and prevailing winds. As industrial pollution increased, the prevailing winds primarily carried it north and east from city cores, which made the south and west more desirable. Now that visible pollution is less of a concern, I imagine it continues through inertia (class, infratructure, yada yada).

Exactly this.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Docere

This seems true of a lot of Canadian cities (and European ones, though not really in the US). Montreal and Vancouver are certainly known for their east/west divides.

Doesn't really seem to be the case in Toronto though, or is only partly the case. There isn't a major socioeconomic difference between the east and west ends. The former borough of York is lower income than East York and was historically more of an industrial area. But certainly Etobicoke is more desirable than Scarborough overall. And it does apply in the 905 (desirable Oakville vs. more working class Ajax say).

Overall yeah it’s a mixed bag. But within the Old City of Toronto you can see micro-divides based on where industry was. Places like Roncesvalles were always more desirable than the massive swath of (former) working class housing on the east side of the railway tracks that spans all the way from queen up to eglinton. But on the flipside places like Riverdale have always been pretty desirable. And you have pockets like the housing around Dufferin Grove which is noticeably larger than surrounding areas (lots of the really big places are and always have been apartments though).

On a macro scale the East GTA is absolutely less desirable, but that’s probably more of a factor of industry developed post-war. Though I guess it may have been less developed than the lakeshore between Toronto and Hamilton which made it easier for that to develop. And topography in the east is less ideal. Even in the 30s there was quite a bit of lakeshore housing in what’s now Mississauga to Oakville / Burlington. And Toronto proper had developed all the way to the current city limits along the lake to the west, whereas in the east it was centred around Kingston rd

[Docere]

There's also a northwestern sector that's very industrial (the Downsview-Weston-Pearson-Bramalea zone).

[J.OT13]

For Ottawa, north is Gatineau Quebec, a severely underfunded region with a lack of healthcare and education options. The east is the franco Ontarian bastion. Overall, growth has been relativly equal on all sides, with a slight edge west and south I'd say.

I've always kind of thought that the west end of most cities has been the more desirable area.

Originally Posted by AuxTown

For me, it's always been the west end. I grew up on the absolute west end of Regina, moved to the far west end of Ottawa (Kanata) and lived for a while in the west end of Toronto. For me, it just feels right....being on the left :-)

Then the sun is in your face morning and evening commutes.

[savevp]

I'm not sure there is any real trend of South over North.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I've always kind of thought that the west end of most cities has been the more desirable area.

Exactly. What does exist is the classic British (and often Continental) trend of the Western side of cities being the historically wealthier one. The theory being that prevailing winds brought fresh air into the West End and blew coal smoke over the poorer East End of cities. This trend, in reverse, is profoundly visible in Australia and New Zealand as well.

The North-South urban divide is really an American concept. It's East-West for the rest of us.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by niwell

On a macro scale the East GTA is absolutely less desirable, but that’s probably more of a factor of industry developed post-war. Though I guess it may have been less developed than the lakeshore between Toronto and Hamilton which made it easier for that to develop. And topography in the east is less ideal. Even in the 30s there was quite a bit of lakeshore housing in what’s now Mississauga to Oakville / Burlington. And Toronto proper had developed all the way to the current city limits along the lake to the west, whereas in the east it was centred around Kingston rd

From a historical perspective, Toronto's growth skewed to the west right from the start, as the east end was swampy and harder to build on. Development past the Don River didn't really begin in earnest until the late 1800s as a result, by which time the city had been (mostly) built up about as far west as Dufferin; if this 1878 map is any indication:




The early bias to westward development then just never let up, as it subsequently got more industry, rail lines, the QEW, the airport, and so on; thereby begetting more growth.

[hipster duck]

I'd like to know where the centre of population is for the City of Toronto, and the GTA as a whole. Without googling it, I'm going to say Dufferin and Eglinton for the city, and maybe the 400/401 interchange for the region. Yorkdale is a pretty useful spot to place a luxury mall that has some one off stores that cater to the whole metro area.

Yonge street is the dividing line between east and west, but it's actually quite far west when you consider the city as a whole. Scarborough - which is everything east of Victoria Park - had about 22% of the population of the city in just under 30% of the total area

[Denscity]

Not true in Vancouver