Lansdowne 2.0 (Northside Stands/Arena Redevelopment) | U/C

[harls]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Apart from that Sun article, I have not seen or heard anywhere that the PWHL is “demanding” that the City build them anything.

You are right, they are merely suggesting an increase in capacity.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Isn't this just a classic squeeze play from the savvy businessfolks who run the PWHL? Once they realized that an opportunity just presented itself to try to extort the City by laying blame on a future smaller arena, they suddenly came forward with their complaint. It's their choice to play at Lansdowne, not their right. They have other options here, apart from moving, and the City shouldn't cave-in to any demands they may come up with.

Originally Posted by phil235

Yep, that’s obviously what it is. Year 3 of the league and they’ve already adopted some of the more unsavoury tactics of pro sports owners. What surprises me is how many people don’t seem to recognize this age-old play - maybe they’re not sports fans or maybe it’s the excitement and novelty of having a women’s team. Either way, the city clearly couldn’t cave to their pressure.

But... that exactly what OSEG did. They threatened to pack up and leave if we didn't invest half a billion for new sports facilities for their teams. That's after going through the entire 1.0 process and spending $200 million on the promise that the current Civic Centre complex would be fine for another half century or so.

From the beginning, even before the PWHL, the public thought that shrinking the arena was a mistake. Since the first season of the PWHL, fans have been saying the new arena would be too small for them. Sounds like the PWHL has been telling OSEG and the City the new arena would be too small for a couple years now.

Tbf, I think that OSEG might have increased that capacity from the initial 5k to 6.6k (with a few changes to the design and stretching some math) to address their concerns. Clearly not enough. And too be fair, expanding the arena would delay the project, cost a lot more and take up more park space, all that with no guarantee that the PWHL would stay in the long run. It's not realistic at this point.

I can't comprehend how people can criticize the PWHL for using unsavory American sports league style tactics to squeeze out concessions from the City while completely absolving OSEG for doing the same. It was especially egregious watching our Councillors going on the attack on the PWHL about this and their Billionaire owner while the irony was completely going over their heads.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

But... that exactly what OSEG did. They threatened to pack up and leave if we didn't invest half a billion for new sports facilities for their teams.

I can't comprehend how people can criticize the PWHL for using unsavory American sports league style tactics to squeeze out concessions from the City while completely absolving OSEG for doing the same. It was especially egregious watching our Councillors going on the attack on the PWHL about this and their Billionaire owner while the irony was completely going over their heads.

When did OSEG threaten to pack up and leave? They talked about not being able to stay in outdated facilities forever, but I have never seen any hint that they would relocate their teams.

The PWHL is literally saying that they won't play at Lansdowne and all options are on the table, including a specific mention of relocation out of Ottawa. I.e. a direct threat to move. And they are doing this in year two of their existence. Not a great look - if they weren't a new and barrier-breaking league, people would have zero time for that tactic.

And that doesn't even factor in their dubious claim that they can't be viable in a brand-new 6000-capacity arena, despite a business plan from 2023 that included much smaller venues.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

When did OSEG threaten to pack up and leave? They talked about not being able to stay in outdated facilities forever, but I have never seen any hint that they would relocate their teams.

The PWHL is literally saying that they won't play at Lansdowne and all options are on the table, including a specific mention of relocation out of Ottawa. I.e. a direct threat to move. And they are doing this in year two of their existence. Not a great look - if they weren't a new and barrier-breaking league, people would have zero time for that tactic.

And that doesn't even factor in their dubious claim that they can't be viable in a brand-new 6000-capacity arena, despite a business plan from 2023 that included much smaller venues.

OSEG didn't threaten to move, they threatened to fold. Even during the final vote earlier this month, Greenberg was suggesting a "no" vote might signal the end of the partnership and the teams. Whether the threat is to move or fold, it's the same result, in this case a half billion bill to the taxpayers.

That's what this entire 2.0 thing is about; OSEG claiming they can't go on if the City doesn't build new facilities for their teams.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

OSEG didn't threaten to move, they threatened to fold. Even during the final vote earlier this month, Greenberg was suggesting a "no" vote might signal the end of the partnership and the teams. Whether the threat is to move or fold, it's the same result, in this case a half billion bill to the taxpayers.

That's what this entire 2.0 thing is about; OSEG claiming they can't go on if the City doesn't build new facilities for their teams.

I think that is quite different than threatening to move to another city that will play ball.

It’s also pretty vague and probably more factual - they won’t be able to continue with all of the current teams without a plan to replace the aging facilities. Remember a no vote probably meant no reno for a decade or more.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

I think that is quite different than threatening to move to another city that will play ball.

It’s also pretty vague and probably more factual - they won’t be able to continue with all of the current teams without a plan to replace the aging facilities. Remember a no vote probably meant no reno for a decade or more.

Again though, I don't remember the Charge threatening to leave Ottawa. They just said they'll explore other options.

At the end of the day, we're spending half a billion for the OSEG sports teams, not the PWHL. OSEG (through Hunt) had plenty of experience with the aging Civic Centre complex. They didn't raise any major concerns when 1.0 was being negotiated in the early 2010s. They claimed it would be fine for many more decades.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Again though, I don't remember the Charge threatening to leave Ottawa. They just said they'll explore other options.

At the end of the day, we're spending half a billion for the OSEG sports teams, not the PWHL. OSEG (through Hunt) had plenty of experience with the aging Civic Centre complex. They didn't raise any major concerns when 1.0 was being negotiated in the early 2010s. They claimed it would be fine for many more decades.

I guess it was Claire Hanna who reported that they said that they would look at relocation, rather than the PWHL directly. But saying that you will look at all other options and confirming that includes relocation is a pretty clear threat. I still think they back off that kind of message with a little reflection.

As for the lifespan of the arena/north side stands, I remember hearing 20 years at the time, but couldn’t find that reference. OSEG claims that there were hidden deficiencies and the structure was in worse shape than they were told, and that’s why the timeframe shrunk to about 15 years. I have no way to know if that is true or not. I’m sure they presented it in a way that supports their proposal.

What isn’t talked about is the fact that the Civic Centre is by far the most outdated arena in the PWHL, with no dedicated facilities or modern amenities. It would have only been a matter of time before the Charge was asking for updates. Status quo was only a temporary solution either way.

[J.OT13]

The Coca-Cola Coliseum dates back to 1921. It was renovated a few times over the last 60 years. The Pacific Coliseum is the same vintage as the Civic Centre, renovated for the Olympics.

Obviously the Civic Centre has a unique design that introduces some challenges not seen elsewhere, but if Toronto and Vancouver were able to renovate those venues, I think we could have done the same.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The Coca-Cola Coliseum dates back to 1921. It was renovated a few times over the last 60 years. The Pacific Coliseum is the same vintage as the Civic Centre, renovated for the Olympics.

Obviously the Civic Centre has a unique design that introduces some challenges not seen elsewhere, but if Toronto and Vancouver were able to renovate those venues, I think we could have done the same.

Yeah, probably could have. The fact that the Civic Centre sits under football stands is a massive challenge that didn't exist elsewhere and added to the complexity and expense. Just talking about the arena, the biggest difference is the space available. Unlike the Pacific Coliseum, which was a full-sized NHL building with all the amenities in the 90s, and the Coca-Cola Coliseum, which has tonnes of space to expand, with the Civic Centre you basically only have half a building, particularly at ice level. That's why all of the dressing rooms are squeezed down at one end of the rink.

It would take a lot of creativity to find space for a second set of team facilities. That probably means digging under the football field and other things like adding elevators and ramps that would drive the cost up well beyond something like the Coca-Cola Coliseum reno. Completely new roof as well (which could have doubled as a really cool concourse for the football stands). I expect capacity would have to be reduced significantly to fit that all in. But there is no doubt that you could have done all of that and had a decent facility that would last you for a while.

I will say that the Coca-Cola Coliseum still sucks for hockey. I'd take the Civic Centre every day of the week.

[zzptichka]

TIL all teams in PWHL belong to the same Billionaire owner from LA. Kinda hard to take it seriously tbh let alone advocate for the city to spend 100M to pander them.

[J.OT13]

I wish City Council and OSEG would have been more empathetic and respectful of the Charge's complaints, been transparent about increased capacity not being an option, and been ready to negotiate a workable agreement as a bridge to a future LeBreton arena, but I think they called it quits early because of they felt they weren't wanted at Lansdowne.

I don't think pressing the reset button to plan a new larger arena is realistic or desirable.

From the very beginning, I would have preferred a full upgrade of the current facility. Fix the roof and make it part of the stadium concourse. The low ceiling arena stands under the stadium could be repurposed for a fan zone, extra washrooms and other needed amenities. Sens loges hanging from the ceiling could have been made functional again. Capacity might have gone down to about 8k.

For me, it's about preserving the unique architecture of the Civic Centre and it's history, but it's also about preserving the investment we made a decade ago and what we've built; a nice park space, the hill and the custom built art work, the orchard of trees, then the retail space attached to the Civic Centre.

I feel like we're now dumping a lot of what was done, along with $50 to $100 million in debt we're still servicing, for a new plan that removes a lot of what makes 1.0 great.

The initial plan proposed by OSEG preserved the general inspiration of the park, the berm, the art work. It added new things to Lansdowne. The approved plan kills the berm for an arena that sticks out, inspired by the old Northlands Coliseum in Edmonton, tosses the art work (which might be saved thanks to Menard's motion), and doesn't expand on the retail. It's a very uninspiring plan.

Side note: didn't all of the stadium's back of house (locker rooms, offices and all) move from the Civic Centre to the South Side stands? What happened to that space? And if space is an issue at the Civic, why did we take up a bunch of that space for retail? That space could have been used for elevators, bathrooms and such.

[Ottawacurious]

Tree lighting ceremony was popular.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Side note: didn't all of the stadium's back of house (locker rooms, offices and all) move from the Civic Centre to the South Side stands? What happened to that space? And if space is an issue at the Civic, why did we take up a bunch of that space for retail? That space could have been used for elevators, bathrooms and such.

I don’t think so. The football locker rooms are in the south side, but I don’t think they were ever in the Civic Centre. If they were, they must have been tiny, as the only large space is down at the Zamboni end, and that has even less room that the hockey dressing room end due to, well, the Zamboni. The OSEG offices are still where they always were in the Civic Centre, I believe. With the Civic Centre it's more a question of layout than the amount of space. There is a shortage of space adjacent to the ice at ice level, but not overall.

Could they have used the meeting rooms that are now GoodLife? Probably, but that space is kind of far from the ice and on the wrong side of the service corridor. It would result in a kind of convoluted layout, but it could have even done if you put the gym elsewhere. What couldn’t have been done is expanding the first level concourse for the north side, or making it accessible, as the wall of that concourse is the other side of the wall with the arena video screen.

P.S. - Just watching Montreal play Boston in the 6400-seat UMass arena.

[J.OT13]

Boston Fleet has one of the lowest attendance though at 4,351 average. Tbf, that might be their home arena 66 km from actual Boston that's the problem.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Boston Fleet has one of the lowest attendance though at 4,351 average. Tbf, that might be their home arena 66 km from actual Boston that's the problem.

Maybe, although it might be more the lack of a single home arena. They were talking on the broadcast about playing a bunch of their games in the Agganis Arena which is at Boston University right in the middle of Boston. It's in the same ballpark - 7000 seats. I've been there once - I don't believe there is any standing room.

I just noted that as it seems to call into question the PWHL claim that Ottawa can't be viable at 6600 capacity.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Maybe, although it might be more the lack of a single home arena. They were talking on the broadcast about playing a bunch of their games in the Agganis Arena which is at Boston University right in the middle of Boston. It's in the same ballpark - 7000 seats. I've been there once - I don't believe there is any standing room.

I just noted that as it seems to call into question the PWHL claim that Ottawa can't be viable at 6600 capacity.

The PWHL said two things about the Ottawa Charge's situation:

1. It can't be profitable in a smaller arena;
2. They don't want to limit growth by moving into a smaller arena.

On the first point, we can't know. They say they are a million dollars off on the least deal to break even. Possibly. What works or doesn't work in the U.S. isn't the same in a Canadian market with a low dollar value. Fact is that when the PWHL started, they were expecting 5k or so per game? So I have some doubt they couldn't make 2.0's arena work, with a few games at the Palladium/LeBreton.

On the second point, I can certainly see that. Despite having conservative expectations on attendance, the PWHL has proven far more popular than what anyone had imagined. It's gained far more traction in Canadian markets than U.S. markets. That can bridge the gap with the low Canadian dollar and could potentially encourage a more Canadian focused league. When averaging 7k per game and easily selling out 8.5k on weekends, I can see why they wouldn't want to limit capacity in a 6.6k building.

As many have said, that attendance high might drop after a few years. We have 3 more years at the Civic Centre (assuming they at least renew until the new building opens) to see how things go. If they ever move in with the Sens and see attendance drop in 5, 10 years, they could always move back to Lansdowne.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The PWHL said two things about the Ottawa Charge's situation:

1. It can't be profitable in a smaller arena;
2. They don't want to limit growth by moving into a smaller arena.

On the first point, we can't know. They say they are a million dollars off on the least deal to break even. Possibly. What works or doesn't work in the U.S. isn't the same in a Canadian market with a low dollar value. Fact is that when the PWHL started, they were expecting 5k or so per game? So I have some doubt they couldn't make 2.0's arena work, with a few games at the Palladium/LeBreton.

On the second point, I can certainly see that. Despite having conservative expectations on attendance, the PWHL has proven far more popular than what anyone had imagined. It's gained far more traction in Canadian markets than U.S. markets. That can bridge the gap with the low Canadian dollar and could potentially encourage a more Canadian focused league. When averaging 7k per game and easily selling out 8.5k on weekends, I can see why they wouldn't want to limit capacity in a 6.6k building.

As many have said, that attendance high might drop after a few years. We have 3 more years at the Civic Centre (assuming they at least renew until the new building opens) to see how things go. If they ever move in with the Sens and see attendance drop in 5, 10 years, they could always move back to Lansdowne.

You're right, we can't know where their break even point is. But there is good reason to be skeptical of their claims, 1) because they were actually only planning on 2.5-3k per game two years ago and 2) they are a professional sports organization trying to get a better deal from a city.

I did think about the U.S.-Canada thing. I took a quick look at tickets, and Ottawa's are more expensive on average, but without knowing numbers at each price level, it is hard to tell how ticket revenues would compare. The Charge would have a lot more of their expenses in Canadian dollars, so it wouldn't be like an NHL team where 60% or more of their costs are in U.S.

As for not limiting their growth, that makes less sense the more you think about it. If they continue to grow past 8000 fans a game, they'll need to leave Lansdowne anyway and we could be building a new arena for a few years before they need to move on. If they shrink to 5000 fans a game, we don't need an 8000-seat arena at all and we've built a white elephant that isn't good for its primary tenants.

Rather than tying to guess the future and building an arena for a point in time that may or may not arrive, better to build an arena that best fits all uses, and they just move to an NHL arena if they grow as hoped.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

You're right, we can't know where their break even point is. But there is good reason to be skeptical of their claims, 1) because they were actually only planning on 2.5-3k per game two years ago and 2) they are a professional sports organization trying to get a better deal from a city.

I did think about the U.S.-Canada thing. I took a quick look at tickets, and Ottawa's are more expensive on average, but without knowing numbers at each price level, it is hard to tell how ticket revenues would compare. The Charge would have a lot more of their expenses in Canadian dollars, so it wouldn't be like an NHL team where 60% or more of their costs are in U.S.

As for not limiting their growth, that makes less sense the more you think about it. If they continue to grow past 8000 fans a game, they'll need to leave Lansdowne anyway and we could be building a new arena for a few years before they need to move on. If they shrink to 5000 fans a game, we don't need an 8000-seat arena at all and we've built a white elephant that isn't good for its primary tenants.

Rather than tying to guess the future and building an arena for a point in time that may or may not arrive, better to build an arena that best fits all uses, and they just move to an NHL arena if they grow as hoped.

Circling back, no we shouldn't blow up Lansdowne 2.0 exclusively for the Charge. I can think of many other other reason why voting down 2.0 would have made sense and why the entire process was flawed from the get go, but we're beating a dead horse at this point. It passed and there's no going back without major financial penalties. Charge can stay at Lansdowne if their attendance goes down over the next few years, or move in with the Sens.

[AuxTown]

When averaging 7k per game and easily selling out 8.5k on weekends, I can see why they wouldn't want to limit capacity in a 6.6k building.

It's simple, the Charge only play 15 home games a season; a far cry from the 41 that the Sens play. There are 350 days of the year where the larger arena does not make sense and they will build for the majority of their events.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

we're beating a dead horse at this point.

Yeah, the horse is clearly dead. It will be interesting to see if the Charge get any kind of concessions from the city in their negotiations.