[Dartmouth] Dartmouth Towers (27-47 Best Street) | 90 m | 3 x 33 fl | U/C

[Dmajackson]

HalifaxDevelopments.ca - "DartmouthTowers" tag (Photo by David Jackson)

[Innsertnamehere]

https://renx.ca/manga-balances-hotel-growth-with-apartment-development

This article quotes this as three 40-storey towers.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

This article quotes this as three 40-storey towers.

The limit has been raised to 40 storeys including in this area I believe, so maybe it is 40 now (120 m?).

In Halifax there sometimes aren't easily accessible up-to-date renderings or clear public details about even some of the tallest buildings going up. Most are rental and they aren't marketed like condos. And there's so much construction it's hard to keep track of. There's "new tallest building" but in Halifax, probably something like 7 of the top 10 tallest are being built right now.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

The limit has been raised to 40 storeys including in this area I believe, so maybe it is 40 now (120 m?).

I believe Manga announced a few months back (though I don't recall exactly where) that the first tower would be 33 storeys and the other two would be 40.

Personally, given the state of the market, I'll be surprised if the second and third towers are begun anytime soon - potentially not for several years, if ever. Ditto for Little Brooklyn. They just got to the market too late.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I believe Manga announced a few months back (though I don't recall exactly where) that the first tower would be 33 storeys and the other two would be 40.

Personally, given the state of the market, I'll be surprised if the second and third towers are begun anytime soon - potentially not for several years, if ever. Ditto for Little Brooklyn. They just got to the market too late.

Has the market improved that much though? Aren't vacancy rates still quite low and monthly rents quite high? It would seem that there is still a lot of money to be made by landlords, and that this will be the case for quite some time.

That said, I'm not in the industry, so this if from a layman's perspective.

[Saul Goode]

I too am a layman, Mark. I'm not "in the industry" either, though I do have some related experience.

I don't claim to be prescient; for that matter, I could be 100% wrong. But a lot of these multi-tower megaprojects were conceived in the intoxicating period of dizzying, explosive population growth of a few years ago. Well, that's fizzled completely. It's over (and with it, the premier's fanciful goal of growing NS to 2 million by 2050, or whenever it was). While there's still capacity to be filled, there's an awful lot under construction right now. I don't think growth in HRM will stop by any means, but it's going to slow radically and with it, the demand for and pace of new construction.

Look around. The Post has stalled completely and Promenade Robie South, which looked so promising, appears dead in the water at the moment. What are we to conclude other than that the ROI isn't looking nearly as rosy as it was just a couple of years ago?

I'd be very pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong as time goes on and will happily eat all the crow you can feed me. But I'm just not feeling it.

[Keith P.]

The concentration of tall buildings in the Bridge Plaza areas always seemed extremely optimistic to me and somewhat risky if not ill-advised. The Little Brooklyn proposal in particular seemed overly dense and didn’t strike me as appealing. They are still digging their first hole so there should be time to change course.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I too am a layman, Mark. I'm not "in the industry" either, though I do have some related experience.

I don't claim to be prescient; for that matter, I could be 100% wrong. But a lot of these multi-tower megaprojects were conceived in the intoxicating period of dizzying, explosive population growth of a few years ago. Well, that's fizzled completely. It's over (and with it, the premier's fanciful goal of growing NS to 2 million by 2050, or whenever it was). While there's still capacity to be filled, there's an awful lot under construction right now. I don't think growth in HRM will stop by any means, but it's going to slow radically and with it, the demand for and pace of new construction.

Look around. The Post has stalled completely and Promenade Robie South, which looked so promising, appears dead in the water at the moment. What are we to conclude other than that the ROI isn't looking nearly as rosy as it was just a couple of years ago?

I'd be very pleasantly surprised to be proved wrong as time goes on and will happily eat all the crow you can feed me. But I'm just not feeling it.

I think that’s a fair take, and to be clear I was intending the tone of my post to be an honest question rather than a challenge to your statements. It just seems to me that rents are still astronomically high, and availability not great, perhaps not untenable as it was with our massive influx of new residents, but still much worse than it was just five or ten years ago.

That said, just like steering a fully laden container ship, there is a huge delay between initial investment and tenants moving in. Maybe there is already enough supply being built to balance out current and future demand. Or maybe the ROI threshold is relatively high such that other investments may be looking more attractive than these.

I honestly have no idea, but I hope there isn’t a quiet tendency of accepting only high profit margins that will have the effect of keeping rent virtually unaffordable for the average (especially young) person who just wants a place to live and enough cash flow to live a reasonably enjoyable life.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think that’s a fair take, and to be clear I was intending the tone of my post to be an honest question rather than a challenge to your statements.

Challenge? Meh. Nothing more than a good-natured exchange of ideas as far as I'm concerned.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Challenge? Meh. Nothing more than a good-natured exchange of ideas as far as I'm concerned.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I don't think growth in HRM will stop by any means, but it's going to slow radically and with it, the demand for and pace of new construction.

It is a bit hard to say what will happen because there are temporary outflows of nonpermanent residents. Halifax's population growth last year was lower than the peak but still higher than say 2005, and higher population growth in Halifax has been happening since 2015 or so.

There's a lot of pent-up remand for housing and prices are high. There are a lot of units under construction but they're still not keeping up with the population growth that happened. Meanwhile, other cities like Toronto and Vancouver have become extremely unaffordable and Halifax is relatively attractive. Today it has a higher status as a potential national destination for migrants and immigration than it did a decade ago.

I'd say that multi-phase plans meant to span many years are always speculative. I think Little Brooklyn is just the one tower under construction, but it seemed they were excavating a shared podium for 3 towers with this development. In any case, I do also think that 30+ residential towers are becoming "normal" in Halifax due to economics and the removal of development barriers. They are not necessarily a sign of irrational exuberance.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

I do also think that 30+ residential towers are becoming "normal" in Halifax due to economics and the removal of development barriers. They are not necessarily a sign of irrational exuberance.

Yes, 30+ is becoming the norm. And unless I missed it, I don't think anyone here even remotely suggested "irrational exuberance".

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Has the market improved that much though? Aren't vacancy rates still quite low and monthly rents quite high? It would seem that there is still a lot of money to be made by landlords, and that this will be the case for quite some time.

That said, I'm not in the industry, so this if from a layman's perspective.

There's a bit of a slowdown. Financing is usually contingent on a certain expected rent roll. We already see some new builds offering significant incentives (anything but lowering rent, due to financing covenants) eg the Press Block.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by kzt79

There's a bit of a slowdown. Financing is usually contingent on a certain expected rent roll. We already see some new builds offering significant incentives (anything but lowering rent, due to financing covenants) eg the Press Block.

My son and a friend have a total of 16 units in 8 houses on the Dartmouth side that they rent out . Two separate operations but rents have dropped about 100 per month in the last year as there are more choices available. Far fewer folks moving though as they usually pay a higher rent when doing so.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Not sure if this is the current plan, or if this had been posted, but the rendering shows how much potential these surface lots have, too.

There could be a mini-downtown on the other side of the bridge in a few years.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Thanks for posting the pic. It's nice to see the buildings in context of the surroundings. Without reading back through the thread, I do seem to remember that the tower now under construction will be 33 floors and the two later towers 40 floors each. But who really knows as these things are subject to change and building will take years. I wonder what will become of the hotel currently in use as a shelter? I find it an attractive building and hope it eventually becomes a proper hotel again. As this area builds out it'll become perhaps the most densely populated area of the city. Given it's proximity to city centre Halifax, is the bicycle flyover ramp at the Halifax side of the Macdonald starting to make more sense?

[Jonovision]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Not sure if this is the current plan, or if this had been posted, but the rendering shows how much potential these surface lots have, too.

There could be a mini-downtown on the other side of the bridge in a few years.

I wish these were still the designs. They were more interesting then the latest version. Mind you, these designs are still from before the height increase. So it might have changed again.

This is the latest rendering.

[JET]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Thanks for posting the pic. It's nice to see the buildings in context of the surroundings. Without reading back through the thread, I do seem to remember that the tower now under construction will be 33 floors and the two later towers 40 floors each. But who really knows as these things are subject to change and building will take years. I wonder what will become of the hotel currently in use as a shelter? I find it an attractive building and hope it eventually becomes a proper hotel again. As this area builds out it'll become perhaps the most densely populated area of the city. Given it's proximity to city centre Halifax, is the bicycle flyover ramp at the Halifax side of the Macdonald starting to make more sense?

The bicycle flyover makes sense to me, makes me think of the Burrard Street Bridge in Vancouver with excellent bike access.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

Given it's proximity to city centre Halifax, is the bicycle flyover ramp at the Halifax side of the Macdonald starting to make more sense?

No. It never made any sense.

[Dmajackson]

This is now at-grade at the future Best Street frontage.


HalifaxDevelopments.ca (Photo by David Jackson)