Midtown — empty lots, disconnected streets round-up

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Originally Posted by Julien

On 11th St extension to William's. That won't work unless they raze the Turner building and add some curvature. Seems just extending to Spring doesn't add much use.

Some Ga Tech org owns the parking lot I believe. Portman might desire the connection to spring because it would dead end right into where there will eventually be another high-rise hotel or more recently suggested to be another apartment tower. And in terms of being a pedestrian the block from 10th to 12th is huge on Spring. so breaking that up would help maneuverability for peds.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

Don't think they should try to extend it to Williams. A single block to Spring could do a lot— give the new Portman development a street vista, divert traffic off of Tenth, and give us six street level active use frontages, rather than two.....)

Little debate: I like 11th the way it is. It's quiet, slow paced, low traffic and pedestrian friendly. Even has a 4-way stop sign that would have to be changed to a Red light. Also don't think people will see as an alternative to 10th or 14th since they both cross the connector have multi-lanes with dedicated left turning lanes/lights. Plus 12th is only one block away, goes from Peachtree to Spring (temp closed) and people don't see it as a through street like 10th/14th. 13th is actually similar to 11th except it doesn't connect to Peachtree instead.

Just to add, I bet the Federal Reserve would prefer to keep the street traffic volume low since their entrances are on 11th and Walk.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Julien

10th to North

Possible and nice corner.


Another small, nice corner lot possibility.

Good ideas. I wouldn't have spotted Mac's. I thought it was a store at the base of a multi story building and I've been in there multiple times.

A blight and NEEDS some love, PLUS ONLY 1 block from the Cheetah and proves their statement wrong.

Absolutely agree!

This is kind of an oddity and always looks out of place to me.

Agreed— no hate for the FDA, but this definitely dates from before Midtown was an urban district and could be the site for something interesting.

GA Tech but could use something AND there is no section of sidewalk here.

The people developing the Cheetah lot were going to use this lot, until they found out the MARTA tunnel ran under it, near the surface level. Would really like to see something here, but it might be a technical challenge.

Good location for a strip club.

Really hoping the new tower replaces it. The one rendering they put out looked really nice.

Could put a high-rise here and raze the Fox to make a parking lot.

I know this was in jest, but it does seem like a bit of a dead zone. I do love all the trees on the site, though.

Hoping.

I heard they were starting on that lot very soon!

What a corner with potential.

Have good memories of Goodfella's and J.R. Crickets there. I wish it could be rehabbed but that's looking less and less likely, especially since J.R.'s burnt down

Give me some air.

Agreed! Midtown MARTA station too.

Thanks for all of this, Julien!

[bryantm3]

Another one; the lot south of St Mark's and the parking lot fronting 4th. Hope they can save the trees on the Juniper Street side, which have grown quite large:




There are also a good number of parking decks that could be axed. The most egregious one I can think of right now is the one on the East side of the Biltmore.



But I don't want to see anything developed there. It just blocks a lovely view of The Biltmore from Cypress that few get to see.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Julien

Little debate: I like 11th the way it is. It's quiet, slow paced, low traffic and pedestrian friendly. Even has a 4-way stop sign that would have to be changed to a Red light. Also don't think people will see as an alternative to 10th or 14th since they both cross the connector have multi-lanes with dedicated left turning lanes/lights. Plus 12th is only one block away, goes from Peachtree to Spring (temp closed) and people don't see it as a through street like 10th/14th. 13th is actually similar to 11th except it doesn't connect to Peachtree instead.

Just to add, I bet the Federal Reserve would prefer to keep the street traffic volume low since their entrances are on 11th and Walk.

I wouldn't want anything wider than a 2-lane extension through there. If cars are a concern I'd be fine making it pedestrian-access only. But I would like a connection through there, and two ~10 story brick buildings across the street from one another, re-utilizing the brick and entrance elements from the Turner building. It would be just tall enough to cover the ugly deck elements of Momentum Midtown and 1072 West Peachtree.

Put some nice restaurant spaces on the ground floor, plenty of street trees, and string lights over the street, and you'd have a really cozy space to complement the Steamhouse lounge and the Residence Inn/Eleventh Street Pub really nicely. I think if you saw what I had in my head right now, you'd approve. It would be a vibe.

[megalopolis]

Originally Posted by Julien

12th to 10th



Next to 1081 Juniper

The developer of 1081 Juniper had to buy the single family home on 12th Street in this pic (183 12th Street) as part of the land purchase. The owner of Joe's and Einstein's lived there. The developer still owns the house. It was used at the construction office, but it's now empty.

From what I heard, there is no density left at 183 12th Street, as it was all used for the 1081 Juniper project. The lot for the house touches the assemblage for the two towers. So the excess density of the house parcel (over and above the density of the existing house) is being used by the apartment project.

Given this fact, can the developer still use the land at 183 12th Street (even though there's no density left) and combine it with the adjacent properties (the townhomes at 187 12th Street to the left of the house and the apartments at 177 12th Street to the right of the house - assuming there's still density left in those two properties, as they're owned separately) and build another tower on the combined land using the combined density?

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by megalopolis

The developer of 1081 Juniper had to buy the single family home on 12th Street in this pic (183 12th Street) as part of the land purchase. The owner of Joe's and Einstein's lived there. The developer still owns the house. It was used at the construction office, but it's now empty.

From what I heard, there is no density left at 183 12th Street, as it was all used for the 1081 Juniper project. The lot for the house touches the assemblage for the two towers. So the excess density of the house parcel (over and above the density of the existing house) is being used by the apartment project.

Given this fact, can the developer still use the land at 183 12th Street (even though there's no density left) and combine it with the adjacent properties (the townhomes at 187 12th Street to the left of the house and the apartments at 177 12th Street to the right of the house - assuming there's still density left in those two properties, as they're owned separately) and build another tower on the combined land using the combined density?

From another thread— those lots have the same zoning as the middle column here: SPI-16 SA2

Originally Posted by RATBOYKEV

The 10th St tower appears to be located in the SPI-16-SA2-Juniper St Transition Area. This is the second "step" after SPI-17 , which is a firm 40' height limit. The image of allowable FAR & other info in different zones is pulled from here. I also want to point out that SPI-16-SA2 doesn't allow bonus incentives like SA1 & SA3 for some reason as per the third image?

[bryantm3]

Whatever complicated zoning scheme they've concocted over there, it's clearly being exploited. There is absolutely no way that this should have been permitted:

[megalopolis]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

Whatever complicated zoning scheme they've concocted over there, it's clearly being exploited. There is absolutely no way that this should have been permitted:

I'm curious, why do you say that the density from the 183 12th Street property shouldn't have been permitted to be used to increase the density of the apartments along Juniper if they all connected?

For context, back when Joe's and Einstein's were there, the valet parking entrance was on Juniper, between the two restaurants. There was a connection from that property on Juniper Street to the property at 183 12th Street, along the south end of the 177 12th Street property and on the north end of the property boundaries of the homes you are picturing here on 11th Street. You can still see that connection on the current property maps on the Fulton County Board of Assessors website. So the valet cars were parked in the southern half of the very long 183 12th Street property.

[bryantm3]

Do you really look at those photos and think there's no aesthetic issue? It's the huge walls lording over a single family neighborhood, with no vegetative buffer or "step down" levels to mesh with the surroundings.

Colony Square backs up to Ansley Park, and there's also a tall building next to the Duck Pond in Buckhead. Both are dense, but the designs provide a sense of respect to the surroundings. This design just doesn't.

[megalopolis]

I didn't realize your comment was about aesthetics. You cited zoning in regards to my question about density being transferred, which I thought implied that the density shouldn't have been allowed to have been transferred from 183 12th to the apartment towers. I was not asking about whether the design should have been allowed.

Can anyone answer my original question, which was can the density of 177 12th, 183 12th (even though there's none left) and the density of 187 12th be combined to permit the construction of a new tower in this location?

[Sojourner_Terminus]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

Do you really look at those photos and think there's no aesthetic issue? It's the huge walls lording over a single family neighborhood, with no vegetative buffer or "step down" levels to mesh with the surroundings.

Colony Square backs up to Ansley Park, and there's also a tall building next to the Duck Pond in Buckhead. Both are dense, but the designs provide a sense of respect to the surroundings. This design just doesn't.

I think a lot of people, myself included believe the current situation to be temporary, until those low rise buildings are rezoned and redeveloped.

Not necessarily huge towers, but relatively dense 6-10 story structures would soften the transition.

[megalopolis]

There are already two, 22-story buildings further east on 12th Street toward the park: Piedmont House and Luxe. I don't believe rezoning is necessary to put another another 22-story tower on the properties in question, assuming the density from 177 12th and 187 12th can can make up for the lack of density at 183 12th.

[bryantm3]

Originally Posted by Sojourner_Terminus

I think a lot of people, myself included believe the current situation to be temporary, until those low rise buildings are rezoned and redeveloped.

Not necessarily huge towers, but relatively dense 6-10 story structures would soften the transition.

While the 177 building, the "blue" apartments, and the apartments on Dickson Place seem to be more recent, budget builds without any particular aesthetic value, the remaining five homes are a treasure. They don't build them like that anymore; and there are quite a few people who would love to have such a home.

This is the reason why I didn't like the Juniper Street project— we didn't just lose two beloved restaurants and an old oak tree... we created a scenario in which demoing the whole block and all its tree canopy seems like the next logical step. That is why I don't think it should have been permitted.

We have too many empty lots and old junk left around to justify demolishing a lovely old neighborhood. The first part of this thread should be proof enough of that.

A good city plan should be neither NIMBY nor YIMBY. It should follow the first rule of improv— "Yes, And." Meaning adding good, without subtracting good.

Or as Savannah's own Johnny Mercer put it: "You gotta accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative".

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Sorry not sorry, but that area between Juniper, Piedmont, 14th, and 10th street has always been slated to transition to being a mid/highrise area. Is there evidence they devised some 'nefarious' scheme to make them the height they are? firstly the parking podium doesn't apply to the FAR, and then approx. 1/3 of the property has no usable floor space on it other than outdoor pool area. There are plenty of single family options around the park, but this area ain't it and definitely should never be it. You argument could have been levied similarly back in the 80's across many parts of what is now dense Midtown which used to be dotted with many old mansions.

[Wrigley303]

"lording over a single family neighborhood"

There are, what, 3 single family homes on that block? Those are surrounded by multi-family residential buildings including multiple mid and high-rise buildings (Piedmont House, The Lux, Park Central, etc.).

That is not a single-family neighborhood by any stretch; it is comfortably multi-residential and properly densifying.