Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Vin]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

To be clear, I don't expect most people would take the train from Downtown to Whistler. Most people are going to take it from the North Shore... jump on a Seabus or something. I'm just thinking instead of having those trains just sit downtown waiting to go back to Mission, we use one to run up the Sea to Sky... and as a solution to... oh we don't have the trains.

I would in a heartbeat, even if means taking the bus can be a tad faster. Imagine going up to Whistler being an easy ride would certainly encourage lots of day trippers, including the thousands of cruise ship passengers disembarking right beside Waterfront Station. The view going up Burrard Inlet and Howe Sound is already worth the trip. Add a skyline dome car to the train sets and we already have a winner.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If (and only if) we can get a Whistler line for less than half a billion, go for it; any more and you're looking at a SkyTrain-sized project for trolleybus-sized ridership (i.e. not worth the effort).

At any rate, CN still owns Squamish to North Van. Nothing's happening as long as they do.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If (and only if) we can get a Whistler line for less than half a billion, go for it; any more and you're looking at a SkyTrain-sized project for trolleybus-sized ridership (i.e. not worth the effort).

At any rate, CN still owns Squamish to North Van. Nothing's happening as long as they do.

Could be wrong, but I though that was owned by BC Rail and under a long-term lease to CN with the right to run passenger service in the future.

The line from North Vancouver to Whistler is going to going to have fairly limited cargo on it. This is not CN mainline, it is a deadend line that does not connect to anything on the other end. It is only going to have local traffic on it.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by casper

Could be wrong, but I though that was owned by BC Rail and under a long-term lease to CN with the right to run passenger service in the future.

Yes - as I mentioned upthread, CN leases the line but is apparently trying to abandon it.

Originally Posted by casper

...This is not CN mainline, it is a deadend line that does not connect to anything on the other end. It is only going to have local traffic on it.

Well, it does connect with Prince George, but that's a bit of a moot point when CN isn't running anything on the south end of the line right now.

Traffic isn't the issue, the cost of acquiring equipment, operating and maintaining the line is, weighed against the expected passenger volumes to support it. I think at best it would still have to be a subsidized service. I suspect that public desire for such a service would not be near the top of the list when compared to what the equivalent money could deliver when spent somewhere else.

[casper]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yes - as I mentioned upthread, CN leases the line but is apparently trying to abandon it.


Well, it does connect with Prince George, but that's a bit of a moot point when CN isn't running anything on the south end of the line right now.

Traffic isn't the issue, the cost of acquiring equipment, operating and maintaining the line is, weighed against the expected passenger volumes to support it. I think at best it would still have to be a subsidized service. I suspect that public desire for such a service would not be near the top of the list when compared to what the equivalent money could deliver when spent somewhere else.

I think the question should be what options along that route are suitable for expanded housing. (With the mountains there are limited options). Part of the goal should be to open up additional housing options that are are within an hour or two of Metro Vancouver.

Tourism to Whistler may also help fill up the trains.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Cart before the horse; if there's only one or two trains a day, and they don't go very fast, all those new housing options are just going to end up creating more drivers. Time is money when you're in a rush.

[jollyburger]

I just want to hear the theory on how you plan on operating a commuter rail system with a single track line through West Vancouver.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I just want to hear the theory on how you plan on operating a commuter rail system with a single track line through West Vancouver.

Not sure why there would be a problem with that. "Commuter rail" normally runs trains in one direction during the morning rush hour and then in the other direction during the evening rush hour. That works just fine with a single track line.

And even if you want to run trains in opposing directions simultaneously, there are sidings at Brunswick, Porteau, Chekamus, Garibaldi, and McGuire (not to mention an entire yard at Squamish). A bit of careful scheduling combined with the fact that there wouldn't be any other conflicting traffic to cause delays to throw off the schedule would make it pretty easy to have the trains pass each other at one of these sidings with minimal delay. It's not as if you'd be trying to run trains at 3-minute intervals. Heck, even the BC Electric Railway used to do exactly this with the single-track lines that originally ran down many of the routes in Vancouver.

[Metro-One]

The primary railway near me in Japan is single tracked for a good 100km of its length, bi-directional train schedules, running both local and express trains at half decent frequencies (about four to six trains an hour in each direction) operates just fine using sidings at key stations.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The primary railway near me in Japan is single tracked for a good 100km of its length, bi-directional train schedules, running both local and express trains at half decent frequencies (about four to six trains an hour in each direction) operates just fine using sidings at key stations.

I imagine that line was probably designed with this kind of service in mind so that the sidings would be properly positioned for efficient meets. That's not really true of the BC Rail line, where sidings were fitted in as permitted by the challenging terrain. Still, at the plausible frequencies for public transportation on the line they'd be more than adequate.

[Migrant_Coconut]

On the third or fourth hand, there's a grand total of one siding between Lonsdale and Porteau Cove alone. Anybody expecting hourly all-day service will likely be disappointed for another two decades.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Cart before the horse; if there's only one or two trains a day, and they don't go very fast, all those new housing options are just going to end up creating more drivers. Time is money when you're in a rush.

It's the same logic on Vancouver Island and in the Okanagan region.

Rail seems like a straight-forward solution to connect cities and towns until you realize the same cities and towns have been designed around the automobile and new developments will still need to incorporate parking solutions.

You would only get a societal shift if the powers that be stop subsidizing roads (adding a heavy cost to driving) which will never happen under our current system due to the ruling political parties that are owned by the auto along with the oil and gas industry.

[Capitol Hill]

Would purchasing some DMUs (Diesel Multiple Units) be cost prohibitive to run on existing rail?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

On the third or fourth hand, there's a grand total of one siding between Lonsdale and Porteau Cove alone. Anybody expecting hourly all-day service will likely be disappointed for another two decades.

Here's where the sidings are:

Mile 19 (from North Vancouver) - Brunswick
Mile 25 - Porteau
Mile 38 - Squamish Yard
Mile 49 - Cheakamus
Mile 59 - Garibaldi
Mile 67 - McGuire
Mile 74 - Alta Lake
Mile 76 - Mons (North Whistler)

Most gaps are around 10 miles (16 km) or less. The biggest gap, between North Vancouver and Brunswick, is 19 miles (about 30 km). Hourly service might be a bit of a stretch at that interval but not by all that much. 90 minute service wouldn't likely be a problem. And if pressed, you could institute hourly service by using the spur track at Horseshoe Bay (Mile 11) to reverse one train off the main track to let the other train pass.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a viable service. But aside from speed restrictions making for long transit times it's not really about track limitations - it's about ridership, cost and revenue. I think you'd be lucky to justify a commuter-style service with trains in one direction in the morning and the other in the afternoon, which makes this whole discussion moot.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

You would only get a societal shift if the powers that be stop subsidizing roads (adding a heavy cost to driving) which will never happen under our current system due to the ruling political parties that are owned by the auto along with the oil and gas industry.

The powers that be are happy to build one SkyTrain after another, since they immediately return 100k+ daily riders on opening... and yet we're still having trouble finding money for UBCx and the Purple Line.

By contrast, the Sea-to-Sky, Valley or Island corridors are a Catch 22 of low service and low density; even if Victoria spent billions it doesn't have to break that cycle, 7k daily riders per line is optimistic.

So if it's a choice between spending our limited transit budget on a train to Courtenay or to Lonsdale, it's not really even a choice. You pick the one that'll give you the most passengers per dollar.

[jollyburger]

Is there any way you do faster times than the Rocky Mountaineer without massive changes to the corridor (3.5-4 hours)

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Is there any way you do faster times than the Rocky Mountaineer without massive changes to the corridor (3.5-4 hours)

When I took the Whistler Mountaineer for $99 (I miss that service) years ago, I remember that it deliberately slowed right down at certain areas. I imagine a commuter train would travel slightly faster than a tourist train that is all about enjoying the view.

[casper]

Here is the link to the old BC Rail timetable. I don't think we should expect dramatically different times.

https://wx4.org/to/foam/maps/2-Perry/014/014b/1987-05-10BC_Rail_PTS12-Perry.pdf

It is about one hour between North Vancouver to Squamish Station. That includes a scheduled stop at Horsehoe Bay and five flag stops. Whistler is another hour north.

We know its going to be hard to justify this financially. Lets assume we can. What probably makes sense is to base a train out of Pemberton.

Pemberton - Squamish - North Vancouver - Squamish - Pemberton
7:30 AM - 9:20 AM - 10:30/10:45 AM - 12:00 PM - 1:50 PM
2:00 PM - 3:50 PM - 5:00/ 5:00 PM - 6:15 PM - 8:00 PM

If money was no object you would add a second train set

Pemberton - Squamish - North Vancouver - Squamish - Pemberton
5:30 AM - 7:20 AM - 8:30/8:45 AM - 9:00 AM - 11:50 AM
12:00 PM - 1:50 PM - 2:00/ 2:00 PM - 3:10 PM - 6:00 PM

Play with the schedule a bit but you likely have the two trains pass each other in Squamish station maybe at one of the old flag stops.

If money grew on trees, then add a daily all the way to Lillooet or even up Prince George. That would be extremely unlikely run to justify.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Kudos for doing the math.

Whether it's two trains a day or four though, I wouldn't expect 4+ hours from Vancouver to Whistler to convert many drivers or bus passengers. This is going to be a lousier WCE.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Kudos for doing the math.

Whether it's two trains a day or four though, I wouldn't expect 4+ hours from Vancouver to Whistler to convert many drivers or bus passengers. This is going to be a lousier WCE.

Well the bus is what around 2 hours? That is from downtown Vancouver.

The people that take the train are going to be people who like trains. Its not going to be people who want to get there quickly.