[Moncton] St. Bernard Place | 18 Storeys | Proposed

[sailor734]

How big is the site? If they go from 18 floors to 6 will it automatically be only 1/3 the square footage or is there room for a larger footprint?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by sailor734

How big is the site? If they go from 18 floors to 6 will it automatically be only 1/3 the square footage or is there room for a larger footprint?

It's half of a city block. They were going to use the entire footprint of the site in any event.

[jonny golden]

It's really disappointing to see St. Bernard's Place being reduced to 6 floors. An 18 floor building would have been a real statement development, and a fantastic addition to downtown Moncton. Especially in that location.

The tomato building going from 10 to 6 floors was a lost opportunity to create a western gateway into downtown. It could have significantly enhanced that important corner, and been a great addition to the Avenir Center neighbourhood. Now this news just feels like another opportunity is going to be squandered.

The market remains very strong, the cost of money has significantly dropped, so there must be some other problem with this developer. Is it their finances, or maybe just the will to take on the larger project?

All in all, it's a real shame. I really loved their original proposal.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

It's really disappointing to see St. Bernard's Place being reduced to 6 floors. An 18 floor building would have been a real statement development, and a fantastic addition to downtown Moncton. Especially in that location.

The tomato building going from 10 to 6 floors was a lost opportunity to create a western gateway into downtown. It could have significantly enhanced that important corner, and been a great addition to the Avenir Center neighbourhood. Now this news just feels like another opportunity is going to be squandered.

The market remains very strong, the cost of money has significantly dropped, so there must be some other problem with this developer. Is it their finances, or maybe just the will to take on the larger project?

All in all, it's a real shame. I really loved their original proposal.

Who are the developers behind this proposal? What's their track record/level of experience etc.? That may be part of the problem.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's half of a city block. They were going to use the entire footprint of the site in any event.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

It's really disappointing to see St. Bernard's Place being reduced to 6 floors. An 18 floor building would have been a real statement development, and a fantastic addition to downtown Moncton. Especially in that location.

The tomato building going from 10 to 6 floors was a lost opportunity to create a western gateway into downtown. It could have significantly enhanced that important corner, and been a great addition to the Avenir Center neighbourhood. Now this news just feels like another opportunity is going to be squandered.

The market remains very strong, the cost of money has significantly dropped, so there must be some other problem with this developer. Is it their finances, or maybe just the will to take on the larger project?

All in all, it's a real shame. I really loved their original proposal.

It's important to remember that while we now have "multiple sources", this remains an unsubstantiated rumour. We might just be hearing a single rumour circulating in the community and it may be false. We'll just have to wait and see.

[jonny golden]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's important to remember that while we now have "multiple sources", this remains an unsubstantiated rumour. We might just be hearing a single rumour circulating in the community and it may be false. We'll just have to wait and see.

Good point. I hope the rumours are untrue.

[sailor734]

Well, I'd say there are issues if they haven't even bothered to edit or take down the webpage saying "opening Fall 2026". Having an unmonitored, zombie website does little for their credibility.

I'll be interested to hear if MonctonRad ever gets any response to his expression of interest. You'd think they would at least have an auto response if nothing else.

[WhipperSnapper]

Skylines factor huge in a forum such as this however, if the urban form is substantial improved than I wouldn't count the loss in height and density as, well, a loss. The whole, "the more the merrier" is overrated on skyline forums as density typically compliments desirable bigger skylines and greater height. Height prowess lessens significantly as our core skyline shift from commercial to residential. Most if not all Canadian skylines have and continue to see dramatic growth and the cause and effect isn't wealth but, actually the lack of wealth. Height is now commonplace among new housing. Quality design and urban form that isn't copied and pasted from one city to another is increasingly rare as institutional developers expand on large scale housing projects. Anyways, the tower, as I remember it, was a bunker at the all important pedestrian level.

The expectation on quality design probably will come down to vinyl but, vinyl with nice Maritime base and accent colours that compliments a walkable, human scale Maritime experience can be decent. The Three Sisters ticks most boxes. It has height. The finishes, the built form, street level interaction are all above expectation. None of those boxes rate exceptional. Ultimately, it's biggest weakness is it's anonymity. It could have been built anywhere. That applies to many 6 storey boxes as well. Taller doesn't raise the bar all by itself.

[Mud]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Skylines factor huge in a forum such as this however, if the urban form is substantial improved than I wouldn't count the loss in height and density as, well, a loss. The whole, "the more the merrier" is overrated on skyline forums as density typically compliments desirable bigger skylines and greater height. Height prowess lessens significantly as our core skyline shift from commercial to residential. Most if not all Canadian skylines have and continue to see dramatic growth and the cause and effect isn't wealth but, actually the lack of wealth. Height is now commonplace among new housing. Quality design and urban form that isn't copied and pasted from one city to another is increasingly rare as institutional developers expand on large scale housing projects. Anyways, the tower, as I remember it, was a bunker at the all important pedestrian level.

The expectation on quality design probably will come down to vinyl but, vinyl with nice Maritime base and accent colours that compliments a walkable, human scale Maritime experience can be decent. The Three Sisters ticks most boxes. It has height. The finishes, the built form, street level interaction are all above expectation. None of those boxes rate exceptional. Ultimately, it's biggest weakness is it's anonymity. It could have been built anywhere. That applies to many 6 storey boxes as well. Taller doesn't raise the bar all by itself.

With you 100% on the aesthetic points.

I also think everyone got a little hyped up by the rumours, proposals, and Lafford projects of the past decade, but there was a time when a six-story infill downtown would have been lauded. We should bear in mind that while it is growing rapidly, Moncton/Riverview/Dieppe still has a few years to break 200k people over a very sprawled area of relatively cheap land. I think we should take a pause and consider the urban form of comparable cities and whether it's realistic that multiple 15+ story projects will be viable in the near future.

All this to say I wouldn't want people here to cause too much of a stir over this with council or developers. This will still be hugely beneficial to our barren downtown core. If anything this news has me more excited because it shows that they are trying to get something done rather than just sitting there waiting for the perfect conditions.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

What's the minimum amount of storeys for residential high rises in Moncton?

Perhaps they need to raise the bar in terms of the height minimum when they are rezoning properties for high rise proposals?

If it's zoned for residential high rise, the minimum should be 10, not 6.

6 storeys is pretty well universally considered a mid rise, not a high rise, right?

Like, are we in a housing crisis or not? Last time I checked, an 18 storey building can provide three times as many units as a 6 storey.

Hopefully they can get the funding needed to build it to at least 10 storeys, but really, let's hope it still makes it to 18. Show us the way, Moncton!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jonny golden

Good point. I hope the rumours are untrue.

Talking with somebody in the industry today. He is hearing six storeys for St. Bernard too. This information is circulating amongst construction professionals. I fear the downsizing may be true.

[new kid in town]

Ah that is truly unfortunate. It is in such a good spot to help create a corridor between Main Street and St. George to help expand our downtown. While it's nice that there will be a building rather than remain an empty lot, it is very disappointing we won't have the height.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Height is now commonplace among new housing. (...) Taller doesn't raise the bar all by itself.

This is a fair assessment, although I would argue that since there aren't a lot of 10+ storey buildings in the downtown core currently, height would not hurt in this case. If anything, with the abundance of 6-storey buildings in Moncton, yet another 6-storey development would not raise the bar much either.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Yet another 6-storey development would not raise the bar much either.

Agreed, although many European cities create downtown vibrancy with street walls of six storey buildings (apartments above, commercial/retail/dining at street level). A six story building adding commercial activity to the pedestrian realm would still add a lot, especially with Tony's on Botsford across the street, and, the commerical activity at FiveFive Queen.

When I first moved to Moncton, the height of downtown redevelopment seemed to be 3-4 storey vinyl clad buildings with peaks and gables and no street level activity whatsoever. Even without height, what is standard now is far superior to the situation 20-30 years ago.

But, I don't personally desire a six storey downtown. We can do better. St. Bernard could have been an anchor for the east end of the downtown core. I am disappointed.

[new kid in town]

I understand the argument about European cities, but let's be real. None of our 6-storey buildings' architecture have the same elegance nor charm as those in the old world (and this is coming from a guy who actually likes the color schemes of the Spitfire build). That's why I was really hoping for some height with this project. Hell, even a 12-storey building would be phenomenal if they really had to reduce but alas.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

6 storeys is a real let down from 18.

It's too bad mass timber wasn't more of a mainstream thing in NB yet. BC and Ontario have both raised roof on their building codes to allow up to 18 storeys for mass timber. Hopefully NB will become a bigger player in the mass timber game considering the importance of forestry and developments in prefab building technologies.

Y'all in Moncton should organize a protest for a 15+ storey build.

Though, even if it does end up only 6 storeys... I'm sure there will be many more 15+ projects in the pipeline for Moncton.

[new kid in town]

Another cut on interest rate by Bank of Canada. Will this affect this project's ability to stay above 6 floors?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Another cut on interest rate by Bank of Canada. Will this affect this project's ability to stay above 6 floors?

I've almost given up all hope for this project. It seems absolutely moribund. I sent a form to the proponents about two months ago expressing interest in renting a unit (fishing for info really), and no response whatsoever. There website has not been updated, and, apparently is unmonitored.

Not good signs...........

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I've almost given up all hope for this project. It seems absolutely moribund. I sent a form to the proponents about two months ago expressing interest in renting a unit (fishing for info really), and no response whatsoever. There website has not been updated, and, apparently is unmonitored.

Not good signs...........

Isn't that a hopeful sign.

Not a good look when their website still shows the full 18 storey rendering when we've known about the downgrade for a while now.

If 6 storeys is the minimum for high rise zoning in Moncton, maybe the city should look at upping that minimum. 6 storeys would certainly be better than the parking lot that sits there today, but it will be a far cry from 18 storeys on that relatively small lot.

Is it that hard to find investors for rental housing and high rise condos in one of Canada's fastest growing cities? It really shouldn't be.

[MonctonRad]

Some developers are well funded (ICON, Lafford, Ashford). Others, not so much.