Rural Commuter Rail

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is probably an alternative history of Ottawa where commuter rail was used to connect Barrhaven and Kanata, but the city is too far invested in LRT and busways to switch modes at this point.

I don’t know where people got the idea that GO Transit is for rural transportation services. Except the Stouville line, the endpoints of the GO system are large cities with hundreds of thousands of residents. Ottawa has no such satellite cities.

True to a degree. Considering that CN operated a commuter train preceding GO, when there was much less population in cities measured now in 100,000+. At the least, we need provincially funded bus service to satellite communities. The private sector is not going to do this.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

True to a degree. Considering that CN operated a commuter train preceding GO, when there was much less population in cities measured now in 100,000+. At the least, we need provincially funded bus service to satellite communities. The private sector is not going to do this.

Burlington, Hamilton, Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, Guelph, were all substantial cities in the 60s. Stouville was the exception which was a once a day rural train when GO took it over in the 80s, but Markham was a pretty substantial population centre by then and could drive a rush hour GO service.

In contrast the largest outlying settlement on any of Ottawa’s abandoned rail routes is Arnprior, which is 8k.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Burlington, Hamilton, Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, Guelph, were all substantial cities in the 60s. Stouville was the exception which was a once a day rural train when GO took it over in the 80s, but Markham was a pretty substantial population centre by then and could drive a rush hour GO service.

In contrast the largest outlying settlement on any of Ottawa’s abandoned rail routes is Arnprior, which is 8k.

If you consider regional transit to include buses as well, here is the latest populations.

Metcalfe 1,800
Greely 10,000
North Grenville including Kemptville 19,000
Russell including Embrun 22,000
Casselman 4,000
Clarence-Rockland 29,000
Arnprior 10,600
Mississippi Mills (Greater Almonte)16,000
Smith's Falls 10,400
Manotick 5,300
Richmond 4,200
Perth 7,000
Carleton Place 14,000

[Williamoforange]

WFH killed any idea of an Greater Ottawa rail system, and rightfully so.

None of the locations "LRT-Friend" listed would ever accept the level of density required to make rail viable as a form of general transportation & not just commuter rail (which again, WFH killed the need for). Also should be noted that regional buses have also failed trying to serve the exurbs.

Ottawa housing problem is Ottawa's problem to solve not its exurbs, and we shouldn't try to solve it buy subsidizing sprawl as was done with the Go train & its massive parking lots.

[lrt's friend]

Ottawa has failed miserably at offering affordable housing within the city limits. The satellite towns continue to grow and that growth may be accelerating. It is true that private bus services have failed, but growing populations will require transit sooner or later. While private commuter service has failed, Prescott-Russell does offer a modest local transit service. This shows that there is a need but crossing into Ottawa is a major barrier. Just to be clear commuter service has restarted to Casselman, Cornwall and Morrisburg

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Burlington, Hamilton, Oshawa, Barrie, Kitchener, Guelph, were all substantial cities in the 60s. Stouville was the exception which was a once a day rural train when GO took it over in the 80s, but Markham was a pretty substantial population centre by then and could drive a rush hour GO service.

In contrast the largest outlying settlement on any of Ottawa’s abandoned rail routes is Arnprior, which is 8k.

Part of the problem here is that the larger, more prosperous, and faster growing exurban population nodes are all off the railway network. Carleton Place, Rockland, and Russell-Embrun are the biggest commuter towns with the most future growth potential. All three already have over 10,000 people each and they could easily have a combined population of 100,000 within twenty years. But they're off the railway network and they're not good enough markets to justify building a whole new railway corridor. Maybe in an alternate world where we had built the Orleans LRT as a commuter rail line instead of extending the Confederation Line, a cheap (original 2001 O-Train style) extension of that line to Rockland as an alternative to the planned 174 widening would have made sense. But we didn't.

Rather than chasing after a questionable GO train clone, the better choice would be a proper regional commuter bus network, like what the private companies were basically providing pre-COVID.

The Ottawa-Gatineau CMA now has 120,000 people who live on the Ontario side outside of Ottawa's city limits, up from 30,000 people twenty years ago. There are now more people living in this "exurban ring" than there are people living in the rural part of the City of Ottawa, a testament to how much the City of Ottawa has failed to allow for housing development*. Something has to be done.

*It's crazy comparing the level of growth/development over the last 25 years between rural areas just beyond Ottawa's border and rural areas just inside Ottawa's border. Like Arnprior vs. Fitzroy Harbour, Metcalfe vs. Russell, Cumberland vs. Rockland, North Gower vs. Kemptville, etc. In every one of these examples the town outside Ottawa's borders has more than doubled, in some cases tripled, in population since amalgamation while the corresponding town in Ottawa's city limit is basically completely unchanged. Commercial development, too. Every one of those outside-Ottawa towns now has a strip mall power centre on its edges, none of those towns in Ottawa do. Folks in Metcalfe now do most of their shopping in Embrun.

Village living has appeal to some people. Ottawa has completely failed to do any meaningful housing development in its rural villages, instead favouring the creation of giant new mega subdivisions inside the urban boundary in Orleans, Kanata, Barrhaven etc. And as a consequence, people who want a house but don't want to live in a gigantic sea of cul-de-sacs have had to cross over the city boundary to municipalities that are willing to house them.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

WFH killed any idea of an Greater Ottawa rail system, and rightfully so.

None of the locations "LRT-Friend" listed would ever accept the level of density required to make rail viable as a form of general transportation & not just commuter rail (which again, WFH killed the need for). Also should be noted that regional buses have also failed trying to serve the exurbs.

Ottawa housing problem is Ottawa's problem to solve not its exurbs, and we shouldn't try to solve it buy subsidizing sprawl as was done with the Go train & its massive parking lots.

Regional commuter services only failed because there was zero willingness by the municipalities outside of Ottawa to provide any operating funding for them. Russell, Rockland, and Casselman experimented with public transit in the 2010s. From 2014 to 2019, Russell Transit was offering peak period bus service every 15 minutes from Embrun & Russell to downtown Ottawa. But the municipality was unwilling to provide any operating funding and kept increasing fares hoping to reach 100% farebox recovery and when it became apparent that it was impossible to do that, they just cancelled the service. What's crazy is that in 2019, Russell Transit actually had a farebox recovery of about 80% and only cost the municipality $50,000 a year in property tax funding - completely reasonable for a bedroom community of 20,000 people. But even that was too much, apparently.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Regional commuter services only failed because there was zero willingness by the municipalities outside of Ottawa to provide any operating funding for them. Russell, Rockland, and Casselman experimented with public transit in the 2010s. From 2014 to 2019, Russell Transit was offering peak period bus service every 15 minutes from Embrun & Russell to downtown Ottawa. But the municipality was unwilling to provide any operating funding and kept increasing fares hoping to reach 100% farebox recovery and when it became apparent that it was impossible to do that, they just cancelled the service. What's crazy is that in 2019, Russell Transit actually had a farebox recovery of about 80% and only cost the municipality $50,000 a year in property tax funding - completely reasonable for a bedroom community of 20,000 people. But even that was too much, apparently.

Well maybe because they don't want to be Ottawa bedroom community, and thus didn't want to subsidize people travel to Ottawa, don't really blame them for not wanting to pay for Ottawa mistakes. Either way they failed, so why would anyone think building heavily subsidized rail for low density exurbs would be a good idea.

Ottawa could solve its housing issues but it cares more about neighborhood character then building housing.

Also, "let friend" the villages that are being allowed to expand are also building large subdivision the same as any other suburb.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

Well maybe because they don't want to be Ottawa bedroom community, and thus didn't want to subsidize people travel to Ottawa, don't really blame them for not wanting to pay for Ottawa mistakes. Either way they failed, so why would anyone think building heavily subsidized rail for low density exurbs would be a good idea.

Ottawa could solve its housing issues but it cares more about neighborhood character then building housing.

Also, "let friend" the villages that are being allowed to expand are also building large subdivision the same as any other suburb.

I'm having trouble following this take. I get that many of these towns want to retain their character, but I'm not sure how that is better than people in Ottawa wanting the same thing.

Also, a very big proportion of the wealth of those towns is dependent on their residents being able to work in Ottawa. The ability to access amenities in Ottawa relatively easily is key to their quality of life. To equate the provision of transit options to these towns with subsidizing people or paying for Ottawa's mistakes requires some real logical somersaults.

[yukaira]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A new video proposing GO Transit rail service for Greater Ottawa. It is another fantasy proposal but not as ridiculous as Moose.

• Video Link

hey! thanks for linking my video
it got WAY more popular than i ever could have anticipated, my last video about ottawa transit (talking about the story of the 95) only got 1/5th the views of that one.

Mooserail was actually an inspiration to make it in the first place, but moose would also involve so much rebuilding/construction, that I cut my plan down to only use existing rail lines, to keep the service cheap. The whole plan originally came from "just take some of the extra FLIRTs/LINTs, and drive them to kanata north for commuters".

its nice to be able to spur (ha, get it) discussion on this kind of thing, I actually didn't even know about this website until my youtube analytics told me 10% of my external viewership came from here.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

Well maybe because they don't want to be Ottawa bedroom community, and thus didn't want to subsidize people travel to Ottawa, don't really blame them for not wanting to pay for Ottawa mistakes. Either way they failed, so why would anyone think building heavily subsidized rail for low density exurbs would be a good idea.

Ottawa could solve its housing issues but it cares more about neighborhood character then building housing.

Also, "let friend" the villages that are being allowed to expand are also building large subdivision the same as any other suburb.

The proof is in the pudding. The satellite towns are growing fast. They are satisfying part of the housing market that Ottawa now ignores. Ottawa has effectively created another Greenbelt with many of its flaws.

We cannot create density with zero transit, so you expect the impossible. Likewise, private transit is also impossible when roads are free. Something will have to give when we reach a certain population.

Yes, more services are being provided locally but there are many reasons to come to Ottawa. So, we will gradually flood streets with exurban traffic. If the exurbs cannot fund transit crossing effectively 2 Greenbelts and clearly Ottawa won't fund it either, then the province will need to step in

Ottawa lives in a fool's paradise when they have placed all kinds of density restrictions and development restrictions, then we look just beyond the city limits. Another donut ring of development is coming thanks to the artificial amalgamation of 2001. This is one of the unintended consequences of poorly thought out policy.

What happens when Rockland reaches 50,000 or any of the other satellite towns, with a 20 or 40 km drive across nothingness to reach the real city? We are building an unsustainable city, worse than the GTA.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by yukaira

hey! thanks for linking my video
it got WAY more popular than i ever could have anticipated, my last video about ottawa transit (talking about the story of the 95) only got 1/5th the views of that one.

Mooserail was actually an inspiration to make it in the first place, but moose would also involve so much rebuilding/construction, that I cut my plan down to only use existing rail lines, to keep the service cheap. The whole plan originally came from "just take some of the extra FLIRTs/LINTs, and drive them to kanata north for commuters".

its nice to be able to spur (ha, get it) discussion on this kind of thing, I actually didn't even know about this website until my youtube analytics told me 10% of my external viewership came from here.

Thanks for the video, and welcome to the forum!

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The proof is in the pudding. The satellite towns are growing fast. They are satisfying part of the housing market that Ottawa now ignores. Ottawa has effectively created another Greenbelt with many of its flaws.

We cannot create density with zero transit, so you expect the impossible. Likewise, private transit is also impossible when roads are free. Something will have to give when we reach a certain population.

Yes, more services are being provided locally but there are many reasons to come to Ottawa. So, we will gradually flood streets with exurban traffic. If the exurbs cannot fund transit crossing effectively 2 Greenbelts and clearly Ottawa won't fund it either, then the province will need to step in

Ottawa lives in a fool's paradise when they have placed all kinds of density restrictions and development restrictions, then we look just beyond the city limits. Another donut ring of development is coming thanks to the artificial amalgamation of 2001. This is one of the unintended consequences of poorly thought out policy.

What happens when Rockland reaches 50,000 or any of the other satellite towns, with a 20 or 40 km drive across nothingness to reach the real city? We are building an unsustainable city, worse than the GTA.

People buying large houses on large lots with large driveways and large garages in the exurbs are not going to take transit. There is a lot of self-sorting going on here.

When Rockland reaches 50k its residents may want a transit service.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

People buying large houses on large lots with large driveways and large garages in the exurbs are not going to take transit. There is a lot of self-sorting going on here.

When Rockland reaches 50k its residents may want a transit service.

I don't think they are against transit because of their housing choice it's just mostly impossible to deliver efficient transit to such developments. It's basically nearly so to most of our suburbs built on medium sized lots. If you have an existing maintained but not needed rail line you could if you did it on the cheap build something worthwhile. Especially as it crosses line and terminates at Via Station. Of course we aren't capable of building such a system now. We'd need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on environmental studies, overbuild every station for accessibility, mitigate any inconvenience to any neighbours, electrify etc.

Call it an experiment as the original O-Train was with bus stops for stations as the video proposes and for less than the useless Airport link you could provide a missing link for some commuters.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Call it an experiment as the original O-Train was with bus stops for stations as the video proposes and for less than the useless Airport link you could provide a missing link for some commuters.

But the original Otrain was already fully grade-separated (except the Via tracks where it had the right or way), had a Transitway connection at both ends and Carleton in the middle. There is nothing like that lying around.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think they are against transit because of their housing choice it's just mostly impossible to deliver efficient transit to such developments. It's basically nearly so to most of our suburbs built on medium sized lots. If you have an existing maintained but not needed rail line you could if you did it on the cheap build something worthwhile. Especially as it crosses line and terminates at Via Station. Of course we aren't capable of building such a system now. We'd need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on environmental studies, overbuild every station for accessibility, mitigate any inconvenience to any neighbours, electrify etc.

Someone who wants to take transit is not going to buy a MiniMcMansion in the exurbs in the hopes that some sort of hourly bus service gets implemented someday. Those sorts of neighborhoods don’t get any transit usage in Ottawa either, but the residents have less say than they do in the exurbs.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

People buying large houses on large lots with large driveways and large garages in the exurbs are not going to take transit. There is a lot of self-sorting going on here.

Aren't these exactly the kind of people who take commuter rail in other places? Drive to the station and hop on a train for a quick trip downtown?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Aren't these exactly the kind of people who take commuter rail in other places? Drive to the station and hop on a train for a quick trip downtown?

Yes, but they are driving to a park and ride, which they can do fairly easily in Ottawa already. Your average Rocklander or Carleton Placer is way closer to an OCTranspo park and ride than your average outer 905er is go a GO station. Should Ottawa have used commuter rail instead of Transitway/LRT outside the greenbelt? Probably, but that ship sailed a long time ago.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But the original Otrain was already fully grade-separated (except the Via tracks where it had the right or way), had a Transitway connection at both ends and Carleton in the middle. There is nothing like that lying around.

Originally Posted by acottawa

Someone who wants to take transit is not going to buy a MiniMcMansion in the exurbs in the hopes that some sort of hourly bus service gets implemented someday. Those sorts of neighborhoods don’t get any transit usage in Ottawa either, but the residents have less say than they do in the exurbs.

Agreed but a grade separated train is a different case. I listened to the video while multitasking so might have missed it but is this rail not largely grade separated with the exception of a few rural roads?

If so they will kiss and ride to a station that gets them to line 2 in under 30 minutes. I don't think it's the case they can already do that. Getting from Arnprior to anywhere you can park on the LRT isn't easy traffic or parking wise.

Also you'd be surprised what they are building in the exurbs. Rowhomes bought by people who think you have to own a patch of grass to be alive and not enough income to do it elsewhere.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Agreed but a grade separated train is a different case. I listened to the video while multitasking so might have missed it but is this rail not largely grade separated with the exception of a few rural roads?

If so they will kiss and ride to a station that gets them to line 2 in under 30 minutes. I don't think it's the case they can already do that. Getting from Arnprior to anywhere you can park on the LRT isn't easy traffic or parking wise.

Also you'd be surprised what they are building in the exurbs. Rowhomes bought by people who think you have to own a patch of grass to be alive and not enough income to do it elsewhere.

It is unlikely a train will get someone from Arnprior to Line 2 in 30 minutes without significant and costly upgrades. That is 40ish km. The original o-train took 20 minutes to go 8 km with more modern track. More likely that is an hour at least, then another 30ish minutes to get downtown on line 2 and line 1. They can drive to Eagleson in 30 minutes, then maybe 30-40 minutes downtown.