What could have been — old visions and plans for Ottawa

[J.OT13]

Would love the expanded Union Station and subway, but overall, I think I prefer Confederation Park and the NAC over wannabe grand European Capital thing.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The conservatives plan put it in front of the heating building.

And the reason for that plan was to eliminate the long-contemplated "judicial" building between the Supreme Court and the National Archives, which kept Harper awake nights, worried that a future Liberal government would (a) build it, and (b) name it after Pierre Trudeau.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And the reason for that plan was to eliminate the long-contemplated "judicial" building between the Supreme Court and the National Archives, which kept Harper awake nights, worried that a future Liberal government would (a) build it, and (b) name it after Pierre Trudeau.

The one that was cancelled by Paul Martin? It is still a vacant field, so junior apparently didn’t want a courthouse named after daddy either.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The one that was cancelled by Paul Martin? It is still a vacant field, so junior apparently didn’t want a courthouse named after daddy either.

Yup, that one.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The one that was cancelled by Paul Martin? It is still a vacant field, so junior apparently didn’t want a courthouse named after daddy either.

Would have looked pretty bad if Trudeau Jr. built a building names after Trudeau Sr. Right wing calls him a dictator now. Just imagine.

Originally Posted by rocketphish

How could this possibly have cost $7.5M, let alone the original estimated $1.5M ? How many pockets were lined along the way?

Yeah, this is pretty ridiculous. Lis=bs should have cut the funding early on instead of flushing more money down the toilet.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Would have looked pretty bad if Trudeau Jr. built a building names after Trudeau Sr. Right wing calls him a dictator now. Just imagine.

He could have called it whatever he wanted. The fact is that nobody saw any use for the building and it is still a vacant lot more than 20 years later after.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

He could have called it whatever he wanted. The fact is that nobody saw any use for the building and it is still a vacant lot more than 20 years later after.

from heritage Ottawa site.

The point is that lot has always been in the master plan to complete the Judicial Triad of buildings. The Harper government went against many of the long standing planning principles on a whim. For example, there are guidelines not to put war related statues on Parliament Hill, but they insisted on putting the War of 1812 monument beside the East Block with guns pointing at people. This was a pre-Confederation event that has no place on Parliament Hill, I hope they eventually move it.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

from heritage Ottawa site.

The point is that lot has always been in the master plan to complete the Judicial Triad of buildings. The Harper government went against many of the long standing planning principles on a whim. For example, there are guidelines not to put war related statues on Parliament Hill, but they insisted on putting the War of 1812 monument beside the East Block with guns pointing at people. This was a pre-Confederation event that has no place on Parliament Hill, I hope they eventually move it.

Heritage Ottawa is significantly bending reality here. The Supreme Court and the Justice Building were built in the 1930s. The idea that a third building was on the books for a century but was somehow prevented by Harper in year 70 of this project defies any sort of credibility. Also, the Greber plan just wanted government office buildings at the site, there was no judicial triangle, which again no Government over the last 80 years has shown any interest in building. "On the north side of Wellington, west of the Supreme Court, our plans provide for two new departmental buildings, similar in volume and silhouette, but not in detail, to the Justice Building."

Also, the Department of Justice was kicked out of the Justice building in the 1980s, so there is no possibility of a judicial triad. The Justice building has long been used for MP offices and the area seen as an extension of Parliament Hill.

This was a Chretien brain fart in his last year in office, maybe based on some 1930s plan. He showed no interest in this his first 8 years on office. Martin had no interest in building it. Harper had no interest in building it. Trudeau had no interest in building it, nor did PMs Mackenzie-King through Campbell.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Heritage Ottawa is significantly bending reality here. The Supreme Court and the Justice Building were built in the 1930s. The idea that a third building was on the books for a century but was somehow prevented by Harper in year 70 of this project defies any sort of credibility. Also, the Greber plan just wanted government office buildings at the site, there was no judicial triangle, which again no Government over the last 80 years has shown any interest in building. "On the north side of Wellington, west of the Supreme Court, our plans provide for two new departmental buildings, similar in volume and silhouette, but not in detail, to the Justice Building."

Also, the Department of Justice was kicked out of the Justice building in the 1980s, so there is no possibility of a judicial triad. The Justice building has long been used for MP offices and the area seen as an extension of Parliament Hill.

This was a Chretien brain fart in his last year in office, maybe based on some 1930s plan. He showed no interest in this his first 8 years on office. Martin had no interest in building it. Harper had no interest in building it. Trudeau had no interest in building it, nor did PMs Mackenzie-King through Campbell.

Good summary. The panic over Harper putting the monument there was also about the widespread view that communism was fine. Still hasn't been implemented "correctly" and other delusional views that we also see on this thread. Canada has been an absolute beacon for those fleeing communism especially in the second half of the last century. Much more than we were for those fleeing and even post holocaust.

We might have only lost a few hundred soldiers fighting the cold war but it was a major focus for half a century.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Heritage Ottawa is significantly bending reality here. The Supreme Court and the Justice Building were built in the 1930s. The idea that a third building was on the books for a century but was somehow prevented by Harper in year 70 of this project defies any sort of credibility. Also, the Greber plan just wanted government office buildings at the site, there was no judicial triangle, which again no Government over the last 80 years has shown any interest in building. "On the north side of Wellington, west of the Supreme Court, our plans provide for two new departmental buildings, similar in volume and silhouette, but not in detail, to the Justice Building."

Also, the Department of Justice was kicked out of the Justice building in the 1980s, so there is no possibility of a judicial triad. The Justice building has long been used for MP offices and the area seen as an extension of Parliament Hill.

This was a Chretien brain fart in his last year in office, maybe based on some 1930s plan. He showed no interest in this his first 8 years on office. Martin had no interest in building it. Harper had no interest in building it. Trudeau had no interest in building it, nor did PMs Mackenzie-King through Campbell.

Although there were differences from plan to plan the concept for the Judicial Triad has existed for a century. Chrétien brain fart LOL. I think you should read up on the history of it : http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2015/12/triad.html

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Although there were differences from plan to plan the concept for the Judicial Triad has existed for a century. Chrétien brain fart LOL. I think you should read up on the history of it : http://urbsite.blogspot.com/2015/12/triad.html

So there has been a myriad of plans for that site, none of which included plans for a judicial triad, none of which until the late Chretien years called for a courthouse and none of which had been acted on for the last century by any PM of either party. But it is Harper’s fault there has been a vacant lot there (or some temporary WW2 structures) for a century.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So there has been a myriad of plans for that site, none of which included plans for a judicial triad, none of which until the late Chretien years called for a courthouse and none of which had been acted on for the last century by any PM of either party. But it is Harper’s fault there has been a vacant lot there (or some temporary WW2 structures) for a century.

Don't worry soon Harper derangement syndrome will be replaced and everything will be PP's fault.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So there has been a myriad of plans for that site, none of which included plans for a judicial triad, none of which until the late Chretien years called for a courthouse and none of which had been acted on for the last century by any PM of either party. But it is Harper’s fault there has been a vacant lot there (or some temporary WW2 structures) for a century.

With the exception of the Holt Bennett plans that turned it into a quadrangle, all these plans have shown a triad of buildings. By Judicial Triad, the definition is more the arrangement of buildings, not necessarily function.

from Urbsite

[acottawa]

But as I have said a few times, nobody wanted to build it. We are 112 years into the triad plan and nobody has built one. And it is extremely unlikely one would be built in the future. The idea that we have to leave the lot vacant forever just in case somebody wants to build a triad makes no sense.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by acottawa

But as I have said a few times, nobody wanted to build it. We are 112 years into the triad plan and nobody has built one. And it is extremely unlikely one would be built in the future. The idea that we have to leave the lot vacant forever just in case somebody wants to build a triad makes no sense.

Just because a building hasn't been built there doesn't preclude one from being built. You can't expect a generation to finish building the Capital.

The siting of Parliament Hill and the Supreme Court is deliberate in that they correspond to the two protrusions in the river escarpment. Parliament Hill represents the Legislative and Executive branches of the government, and the concept of framing the Supreme Court similar to that of Parliament Hill — a triad of buildings where the central one is offset by a lawn — visually presents the Judicial Branch as an important and integral part of our democracy. You may not agree artsy-fartsy stuff like that but it's visual narratives like this that creates symbolism and deeper meaning in the capital.

In many ways I am glad nothing was built there in the last 60 years as it skipped a lot of terrible architectural styles. I'd like to think it's waiting for a better time when there is a return to richer detailing on buildings. Seeing developments in computer-aided design and fabrication, that time might be coming in the next decade.

[kwoldtimer]

Wasn't supposed to be the new Federal Court of Canada building?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Just because a building hasn't been built there doesn't preclude one from being built. You can't expect a generation to finish building the Capital.

The siting of Parliament Hill and the Supreme Court is deliberate in that they correspond to the two protrusions in the river escarpment. Parliament Hill represents the Legislative and Executive branches of the government, and the concept of framing the Supreme Court similar to that of Parliament Hill — a triad of buildings where the central one is offset by a lawn — visually presents the Judicial Branch as an important and integral part of our democracy. You may not agree artsy-fartsy stuff like that but it's visual narratives like this that creates symbolism and deeper meaning in the capital.

In many ways I am glad nothing was built there in the last 60 years as it skipped a lot of terrible architectural styles. I'd like to think it's waiting for a better time when there is a return to richer detailing on buildings. Seeing developments in computer-aided design and fabrication, that time might be coming in the next decade.

Exactly. Government precincts tend to be built very incrementally, so I don't think anyone can write off this being built in the future. There will come a time when someone decides that a federal court building makes more sense that continuing to operate in leased office space (which is pretty painful from a security perspective and not very accessible to the public).

I have wondered if the renos to the West Memorial Building for the Supreme Court have left open the possibility of using it for the Federal Court once the Supreme Court moves back. It probably wouldn't have enough courtrooms, but I wonder how easily that could be fixed.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Exactly. Government precincts tend to be built very incrementally, so I don't think anyone can write off this being built in the future. There will come a time when someone decides that a federal court building makes more sense that continuing to operate in leased office space (which is pretty painful from a security perspective and not very accessible to the public).

I have wondered if the renos to the West Memorial Building for the Supreme Court have left open the possibility of using it for the Federal Court once the Supreme Court moves back. It probably wouldn't have enough courtrooms, but I wonder how easily that could be fixed.

While I admire your optimism, 17 Prime Ministers have declined to build the sacred triad. One of those PMs decided to build it, but only after being in office 8 years and being clearly on his way out.

The trial division federal court largely functions as a circuit court with hearings across the country and conducts many of its hearings virtually. Building a large courthouse for a circuit court doesn’t make a lot of sense. This isn’t like the US where terrorism, drug offences or other serious crimes are heard in federal court.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by acottawa

While I admire your optimism, 17 Prime Ministers have declined to build the sacred triad. One of those PMs decided to build it, but only after being in office 8 years and being clearly on his way out.

The trial division federal court largely functions as a circuit court with hearings across the country and conducts many of its hearings virtually. Building a large courthouse for a circuit court doesn’t make a lot of sense. This isn’t like the US where terrorism, drug offences or other serious crimes are heard in federal court.

I find it funny that of all days, today is the one the old "harper was a bad man" meme decided to rise.

There were alot of years of nothingness, until martin wanted a legacy, thankfully it got quashed & sane people moved on.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The trial division federal court largely functions as a circuit court with hearings across the country and conducts many of its hearings virtually. Building a large courthouse for a circuit court doesn’t make a lot of sense. This isn’t like the US where terrorism, drug offences or other serious crimes are heard in federal court.

It’s true that the Federal Court hears cases in various locations across the country, but I don’t think a US Circuit Court is a good comparison. Those are courts that hear a wide range of cases across a large district. In Canada, the Federal Court only hears cases in certain areas within the federal jurisdiction, a huge chunk of which is Ottawa-based. The Court itself is Ottawa based, as is the Federal Court of Appeal.

Court houses don’t just consist of court rooms. The bulk of the space is dedicated to court administration. You can put all of those activities in an office building, but I think it’s fair that most countries and jurisdictions see the value in investing in proper facilities for their courts. By failing to build a Federal courthouse, we are just being cheap, which is pretty much par for the course.