Burrard Inlet Rapid Transit - Park Royal-Metrotown via 2nd Narrows | BRT/RRT?

[jollyburger]

He worked at Translink as a Senior Urban / Transport Planner for two years and SNC-Lavalin, Halcrow Group and LEA Consulting Ltd on other rapid transit projects apparently as a transport planner.

Stephan Nieweler is a seasoned professional in the planning and transportation sectors, currently engaged as a planning and transportation instructor, and doctoral candidate in the Department of Geography at Simon Fraser University. While employed as a planning professional, he provided expert advice on numerous multi-modal transport studies, rapid transit projects and transit-oriented development strategies while based throughout Canada, the UK and India. Upon returning to academia, Stephan focused his research on the opportunities and constraints associated with downtown revitalization in small communities experiencing renewed economic growth, through the theoretical lens of path dependency. As a result of personal connections to Newfoundland, his research and travels have taken him to communities throughout the province.

https://municipalnl.ca/conference-2023-t...2023-conference/presenters-and-speakers/

[Migrant_Coconut]

What works for St John's doesn't necessarily work for Vancouver.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I have a hard time seeing how an elevated guideway works since it's barely five lanes across for most of the expected route and a lot of those sections have newer buildings so I doubt they'll be able to expropriate some land to make it wider.

There needs to be some sort of balance between what's actually needed in terms of the connectivity and utility of a transit system vs. the cost to provide it. The route may not be the easiest to construct, but if it better serves the needs of the public then it could potentially be worth the added cost.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

He worked at Translink as a Senior Urban / Transport Planner for two years and SNC-Lavalin, Halcrow Group and LEA Consulting Ltd on other rapid transit projects apparently as a transport planner.

Yes, I was mistaken, he apparently has a Masters degree in planning from the University of Toronto. He was at TransLink over ten years ago, but then switched back to an academic career and is now in the geography department at SFU.

Reading the earlier press coverage of his idea for North Shore LRT, the TransLink transportation planners were underwhelmed by his analysis.

[Stainer]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I have a hard time seeing how an elevated guideway works since it's barely five lanes across for most of the expected route and a lot of those sections have newer buildings so I doubt they'll be able to expropriate some land to make it wider.

If it's like any of the other proposed long term routes around the region, there's probably already a ROW hiding in plain sight.

I've been working on a deep dive video about how there's tons of long term planning in place for lines that are 25+ years away. City/transit planners/engineers are pretty clever.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Stainer

If it's like any of the other proposed long term routes around the region, there's probably already a ROW hiding in plain sight.

I've been working on a deep dive video about how there's tons of long term planning in place for lines that are 25+ years away. City/transit planners/engineers are pretty clever.

Unfortunately, the North Shore (particularly the CNV) began developing almost as early as Vancouver did and the build out we have today was roughly envisioned around a century ago. I find it pretty hard to believe they planned for SkyTrain when the city streets were laid out.

[djmk]

what kind of slopes can LRT handle? There are some significant slopes between metrotown and Phibbs

[officedweller]

Another factor is that lines are preferred along routes that are double loaded - meaning ridership from both sides of the line, rather than from a single side, so it may not be close to the shore.

Maybe a portal into the hill along 3rd St. here on the right side:

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Another photo of the changed road configuration



https://twitter.com/CityOfNorthVan/status/1702379207081222316/photo/1

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Stainer

If it's like any of the other proposed long term routes around the region, there's probably already a ROW hiding in plain sight.

I've been working on a deep dive video about how there's tons of long term planning in place for lines that are 25+ years away. City/transit planners/engineers are pretty clever.

But there isn't any really wide roads on the North Shore apart from the highway, parts of Taylor Way, Lonsdale and Grand Boulevard. There's no old railway ROW that can be used.

1970s document referencing some North Shore transit

North Shore—Granville and pender across new Burrard crossing to Upper Levels Highway.
Link to east via Lonsdale and 21st (North Vancouver)
Link to West via 15th Street (West Vancouver)

https://voony.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/the-case-for-rapid-transit-in-1970/

Some more here:

I recently spent some off-hours at the downtown library, looking at (and taking low-quality iPhone pictures of) the variety of rapid transit schemes proposed for Vancouver from the 1950s through the 1990s. I was curious to learn when, exactly, the two missing arms of the octopus – the Hastings arm and the North Shore arm – had been lopped off.

https://orangeraisin.wordpress.com/2019/04/21/concrete-octopus-vancouver-rapid-transit/

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by djmk

what kind of slopes can LRT handle? There are some significant slopes between metrotown and Phibbs

I don't know about LRT but I know they limit Skytrain to 6 degrees. Any Willingdon Skytrain line would likely have to be underground around Metrotown, then be elevated in the bowl before going underground again around Brentwood, and then a bridge across the water to Phibbs.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by djmk

what kind of slopes can LRT handle? There are some significant slopes between metrotown and Phibbs

LRT is used as such a wide bucket for various technologies, which are you referring to?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by mcj

LRT is used as such a wide bucket for various technologies, which are you referring to?

I can for certain say that there's no commonly used adhesion rail based system that can handle E 3rd or E Keith.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I can for certain say that there's no commonly used adhesion rail based system that can handle E 3rd or E Keith.

Those two roads seem to have a similar grade as Connors Hill Road in Edmonton which runs an at-grade LRT line in its own ROW.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Those two roads seem to have a similar grade as Connors Hill Road in Edmonton which runs an at-grade LRT line in its own ROW.

Perhaps Google is tricking my eyes, but Connors Road on streetview looks much less steep than E 3rd or E Keith.







My extremely rough calculations based on topography have the E 3rd hill with a 9% average grade and the steep section of E Keith from Heywood to Cloverley with a 12% grade! The peak slope is certainly higher since those roads are definitely not linearly slopey.

I'm not sure what the steepest part of Connors Road is but it seems pretty gradual and the stretch from the footbridge up to 95th is around 4% grade on average which is pretty typical for dedicated passenger rail.

[djmk]

Originally Posted by mcj

LRT is used as such a wide bucket for various technologies, which are you referring to?

to whatever technologies that the article was referencing to

Another huge slope would be the back side of Boundary around Trinity and then all the way down to sea level were Phibbs is.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Pretty much the only practical route for a street-running train is Esplanade/Low Level, and that means half the potential catchment is taken up by industry and water. Almost definitely not going to happen.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by djmk

Another huge slope would be the back side of Boundary around Trinity and then all the way down to sea level were Phibbs is.

Not to self advertise or anything, but this guy had some ideas about all of that.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10215562&postcount=3419

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Pretty much the only practical route for a street-running train is Esplanade/Low Level, and that means half the potential catchment is taken up by industry and water. Almost definitely not going to happen.

Lower Level Road is also gridlock every single day. Absolute non-starter.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

one way any rail could deal with the grades is a series of viaducts and tunnels, ignoring the natural slope as needed. its been done in the past and can be still.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

one way any rail could deal with the grades is a series of viaducts and tunnels, ignoring the natural slope as needed. its been done in the past and can be still.

Then you jump from the engineering ceiling to the financial ceiling - if the final price reaches eleven figures, BC mutinies.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

one way any rail could deal with the grades is a series of viaducts and tunnels, ignoring the natural slope as needed. its been done in the past and can be still.

A series of viaducts and tunnels? That's called Skytrain!