Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by Rileybo

Photo bump

Tons of fun at the Kilby Block Party this weekend. Santigold, Death Cab for Cutie, and The Postal Service killed it last night.

I bought tickets for Santigold about a year and a half ago when she canceled her tour. I would have gone to see her this time, but you had to buy the $200+ tickets for the entire KBP. Are there any videos of her performance?

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I get it now. You're just freaking out over things that may not even happen.

And all from your home not in Salt Lake City or Salt Lake County or even Utah lmao

I get being concerned but holy shit, my dude. You taking a defiant tone, and being so adamant about things when none of this is even remotely finalized or even likely to be finalized in a way that a) eliminates the Salt Palace completely b) and the complete demolition of Abravanel Hall is just wasted energy.

There's being reluctant and waiting for more information before coming out in favor/against this deal and then there's whatever the hell you're doing here lmao

Idk, I feel like their concern is valid, if not a bit overblown. It shows that this has happened extremely fast, which does lead to confusion, and I think that's a valid reason to want to slow down a bit and think about what we're doing here. While responses like this may not be the most rational or whatever, they are shared by the public, and that should be concerning. I also don't think shutting down their argument as invalid and ridiculing them isn't going to help in any way, either.

[Rileybo]

Originally Posted by Orlando

I bought tickets for Santigold about a year and a half ago when she canceled her tour. I would have gone to see her this time, but you had to buy the $200+ tickets for the entire KBP. Are there any videos of her performance?

Lol I too was going to attend her show here last year before it was cancelled. Single-day passes for around $120 were still being sold the day of, sorry you weren’t there.. She killed it, I have some video I could share with you. Message me.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

Idk, I feel like their concern is valid, if not a bit overblown. It shows that this has happened extremely fast, which does lead to confusion, and I think that's a valid reason to want to slow down a bit and think about what we're doing here. While responses like this may not be the most rational or whatever, they are shared by the public, and that should be concerning. I also don't think shutting down their argument as invalid and ridiculing them isn't going to help in any way, either.

What's happened extremely fast? Literally no one, outside maybe the council, has seen any of these proposals. It's all overblown conjecture. To be so adamant about something without even knowing what we're looking at is kinda crazy to me.

If there was a definitive plan, and no room for negotiations, with Smith basically saying, "we're doing it this way or I'm peacing out", I could see the trepidation. But that isn't the case here. So, why waste the energy?

[nushiof]

I don’t know how to copy and paste tweets (X’s) here but both Mayor Wilson and Mayor Mendenhall both tweeted this afternoon implying that SEG is working with them to preserve Abravenal Hall in its current form. The term Sports/Entertaimment/Convemtion/Culture district is being used and the key stakeholders all recognize that Abravenal Hall is a key to the Culture piece. Really love to hear this. I’m optimistic about this project and think it will be transformative in a good way for downtown.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by airhero

Salt Lake City has released the Main Street Pedestrian Promenade Study, which aims to reconfigure Main Street between South Temple and 400 S and the portion of 100 South between Main and West Temple. The tentative plan is to close these street sections off permanently to general auto traffic and prioritize pedestrian access:

https://www.slc.gov/ed/main-street-promenade-study/

Correction--100 South would remain open to auto traffic but would be condensed to one lane in each direction:

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Comrade

I get it now. You're just freaking out over things that may not even happen.

And all from your home not in Salt Lake City or Salt Lake County or even Utah lmao

In fairness, I was born in Salt Lake County. Grew up in Salt Lake County. And lived 32 years in the Wasatch Front. And quite likely may find myself back in Salt Lake County once my parents get older.

But please dude— I know we haven't exactly been chummy these past 20 years on this board, but dude. Dude.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by i-215

In fairness, I was born in Salt Lake County. Grew up in Salt Lake County. And lived 32 years in the Wasatch Front. And quite likely may find myself back in Salt Lake County once my parents get older.

But please dude— I know we haven't exactly been chummy these past 20 years on this board, but dude. Dude.

Bro. You're freaking out over ambiguous hearsay and completely ignoring the multiple stories that suggests this very well could be a workable partnership.

It's wild to me. It's not that you've approached this with an I have concerns attitude. The whole approach has been to basically tell Ryan Smith to kick sand and for downtown to lose the Jazz, this new NHL team and its arena.

I think that's an overreaction. And yes, it's a bit wild to me that you're reacting this way despite not living in Utah.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by Comrade

What's happened extremely fast? Literally no one, outside maybe the council, has seen any of these proposals. It's all overblown conjecture. To be so adamant about something without even knowing what we're looking at is kinda crazy to me.

If there was a definitive plan, and no room for negotiations, with Smith basically saying, "we're doing it this way or I'm peacing out", I could see the trepidation. But that isn't the case here. So, why waste the energy?

No because why do they keep saying to go back to the drawing board lmao... like where do you think they are in this process? In the context of this forum too where we have been following it for years it seems so out of left field to suggest ryan smith initiated this process by threatening slc or something. We watched it almost move to the point and followed the politics around it. There are valid criticisms of and concerns about the few things we know about the financing and some other elements sure but there is hardly any actual plan to be vehemently opposed to at this point... way too worked up about rumors and clickbait (speaking generally because I have seen the same arguments on the sub too)

[Nebula3lem123]

What I meant by extremely fast is that the legislature pushed both bills, for both the NHL and the MLB, through very quickly, while also setting an extremely early due date for the city. I personally think that this is totally fine, we can do hard things quickly, but I can also see how it would concern people who are less in the know.

[Paniolo Man]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Bro. You're freaking out over ambiguous hearsay and completely ignoring the multiple stories that suggests this very well could be a workable partnership.

It's wild to me. It's not that you've approached this with an I have concerns attitude. The whole approach has been to basically tell Ryan Smith to kick sand and for downtown to lose the Jazz, this new NHL team and its arena.

I think that's an overreaction. And yes, it's a bit wild to me that you're reacting this way despite not living in Utah.

It's the lack of information that is upsetting to me. We're committing a billion tax dollars to a billionaire with a vague idealistic plan and no obligation to deliver.

Everything else in this state has to at least go through the illusion of being studied before money is allocated. Here we are arguing about what could or couldn't happen, one way or another, Smith is getting that cash.

[mattreedah]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

Everything else in this state has to at least go through the illusion of being studied before money is allocated. Here we are arguing about what could or couldn't happen, one way or another, Smith is getting that cash.

The city council and SEG have to agree to a plan in which there is a public comment period and a vote for a tax district. Then a legislative committee and an appointee of the governor needs to approve it. I would say that is at least an illusion. Also, this is interesting KSL article on the purposed zoning changes . Looks like there has been negotiation on height, signs and parking structures and will certainly pass.

[DCRes]

Does anyone know how frequently the west portion of the Salt Palace gets used? We're hearing people talk about how it is overbuilt by overall space, but underbuilt for ballroom space. I guess that makes sense, I feel like the big Tech convferences that I hear about there are more about bringing in people, not physical product for display. I'm wondering if it the big expansion space is really only used for Outdoor Retailers. What about FanX, how much space do they use?

[Nebula3lem123]

^^Last time I went to FanX, they took up the entire floor space. I don't know much about convention centers and how much space they need, but it does seem ridiculous that it takes up THREE blocks of downtown, is effectively only 2 stories tall, and poses as a major barrier between main street/west temple and 3rd/4th west. I don't think the Salt Palace should be made smaller, especially since FanX is growing, but it should be made denser, and with adequate connections through the center.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

^^Last time I went to FanX, they took up the entire floor space. I don't know much about convention centers and how much space they need, but it does seem ridiculous that it takes up THREE blocks of downtown, is effectively only 2 stories tall, and poses as a major barrier between main street/west temple and 3rd/4th west. I don't think the Salt Palace should be made smaller, especially since FanX is growing, but it should be made denser, and with adequate connections through the center.

Well, considering the tradeoffs, a contraction could be a good move. Contracting the exhibit space could save hundreds of millions (if not billions) by avoiding the cost of a complete multi-level rebuild. FanX, which as far as I know is the only convention that uses Exhibit Hall 5, attracts many local attendees who may not significantly contribute to the downtown economy (no staying in hotels or even eating meals downtown, just commuting in and out). Reducing exhibit space is unlikely to cause FanX to relocate, due to its reliance on locals, and any negative financial impact from FanX arising from a contraction may be negligible. Reducing space does risk losing current conventions should they get bigger or failing to attract new, larger ones, but the county seems to believe the financial risks from this are low.

Exhibit Hall 5 offers 130,000 square feet; removing it leaves 380,000 square feet of space. OR uses all of this space for their summer show, so I'm guessing plans likely aim for this amount of space, plus a new ballroom and meeting areas, achievable within the existing blocks without reopening 100 S (which, based on recent rumblings, 100 S will remain closed). The challenge lies in integrating current halls with new connections without extensive rebuilding, which would drive up costs. If a costly rebuild becomes necessary, we may as well go the whole nine yards and do a multi-level rebuild that preserves contiguous exhibit space, increases ballroom and meeting space, and allows for an opportunity to reopen 100 S. I'm guessing the least costly method is the priority though.

Problem is, reusing current exhibit halls, combined with adding the midblock connection between CCC and the DC and not demolishing Abravanel Hall, it's difficult to see how that works out without completely tearing down and rebuilding huge sections of the convention center, which is what we're trying to avoid in the first place through an exhibit space contraction. This is the logistical aspect I'm most interested in hearing details about. Honestly, I'm expecting one of (in order of decreasing likelihood, imo) Abravanel Hall getting demolished, the midblock connection getting scrapped (while still vacating portions, if not all, of the west block), contiguous exhibit space contracting well below even 380,000 sq ft, or convention center expanding to other blocks. I believe all of these things are far more likely than an extensive rebuild. I could be wrong though.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

It's the lack of information that is upsetting to me. We're committing a billion tax dollars to a billionaire with a vague idealistic plan and no obligation to deliver.

Everything else in this state has to at least go through the illusion of being studied before money is allocated. Here we are arguing about what could or couldn't happen, one way or another, Smith is getting that cash.

We're not doing anything at the moment.

And with how everyone overreacts at the craziest rumors, I can understand why they're not ready to unload all the information yet. People are not being rational with this.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by rockies

No because why do they keep saying to go back to the drawing board lmao

Can you point me to where they 'keep going back to the drawing board'?

They're negotiating.

Do you guys not know how projects work? Every project ever has multiple drafts with concessions and changes. It doesn't mean you're going back to the drawing board, though lmao

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Comrade

it's a bit wild to me that you're reacting this way despite not living in Utah.

TIL, moving away from Utah (even for awhile) makes me no longer "in the group." Human tribalism sure is a great trait our species has, don't you think?

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

It's the lack of information that is upsetting to me. We're committing a billion tax dollars to a billionaire with a vague idealistic plan and no obligation to deliver.

Hear hear, Paniolo Man!

Right now we (the public) are getting dumped with all very real, concrete downsides...

• Demolition of convention center (despite opening a convention center hotel)
• Demolition of Abravanel Hall
• Commitment to new sales tax
• $900M commitment from the legislature
• Further erasure of Japantown
• Potential loss of major trade shows during construction

...with only nebulous, vague promises from SEG:

• A new hotel
• "Housing"
• Not moving the Jazz away

The communication on this has been horrible! I think my outrage is well justified, based on the current information that we have.

You may crap on me for living in California, Comrade. But I do know this living here: DO NOT TRUST TECH BROS. They make pie-in-the-sky promises and are happy to take every dollar you give them. But a good V.C. (or city government) knows that you have to get concrete, contractual commitments from these clowns or else they'll walk all over you.

There's a term in tech: VAPORWARE. When a tech company promises something amazing. Takes a lot of money. It gets delayed and delayed. And eventually never gets delivered — at least in no form remotely close to what investors expected. And without iron-clad contracts, there's little recourse.

The vague nature of SEG's entire project has a twinge of vaporware to it. Hopefully that isn't the case. There's precedent for both:

• Positive: AEG built LA Live. It's a good project. It shows stadium owners, like Ryan Smith, can deliver when they have skin in the game. (It's a little scary to see the SEG project be LA Live, but on steroids -- especially considering how much smaller of a market the Wasatch Front is from Southern California).
• Against: Remember that clown who wanted to build Utah's tallest building at the point of the mountain? Designed by Frank Ghery, no less? And we all sort of took the bait. We forum members tend to let our love for skyscrapers cloud of common sense. (I'm not falling for the trap this time).

Originally Posted by Paniolo Man

IEverything else in this state has to at least go through the illusion of being studied before money is allocated. Here we are arguing about what could or couldn't happen, one way or another, Smith is getting that cash.

I think that's also what really bothers me.

Part of why I love Utah is that, unlike my current state I live in (despite Comrade's objections), money doesn't just fly off the shelves. Love or hate the Utah Legislature, they do tend to slow down and scrutinize spending.

So, to see them rush through a $900M commitment during the 11th-hour of the session with no public comment or scrutiny? IT SMELLS. This isn't Utah. This is more like Chicago.

Something ain't right here. And I'm going to keep being a squeaky wheel until SEG puts down some CONCRETE commitments and plans to match the cold reality of the COSTS the public are going to pay.

Hopefully, we'll get good details that assuage concerns and put us on a pathway to a viable project. Until then, I'm worried.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by i-215

TIL, moving away from Utah (even for awhile) makes me no longer "in the group." Human tribalism sure is a great trait our species has, don't you think?

You being so adamant this project not happen, and that the city kick Ryan Smith to the curb, when you've got zero skin in the game is the point. You don't live in Salt Lake anymore. You're not going to be impacted one way or another. It's easy for you to say, "let Ryan Smith move the Jazz and this hockey team south or into Utah County..." when you don't actually live in Salt Lake County, let alone Salt Lake City.

That's the point. You're free to have an opinion and speak your mind but I just find it funny that you're so ready to go to war over things that haven't even been announced yet and you don't live here anymore. I'm sure you can see how that dynamic is a bit interesting.

[Atlas]

At this point, I'm actually expecting:

• Abravanel either won't be demolished, in which case it will be renovated, or it will be and a new concert hall will be incorporated into the plan.
• Some demolition/reorientation of the convention center to improve the Main St.-DC connection, but some new space too.
• Enhancements to Japantown including improved streetscaping and alterations to that side of the CC
• Complete overhaul of South Temple and the 300W face of the CC, maybe even some Church-funded redevelopment on the north side
• Multiple residential or mixed-use towers funded by SEG

I don't get the pessimism right now, tbh. The downside is the taxation, not what is going to happen because of it.