Canadian Foreign Policy & Affairs II

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Off the current topic, but I've been a bit surprised that Canada's decision to restore funding to UNRWA has not generated much controversy. I think it was the right decision, but the opposition to UNRWA is very well organized.

I think anybody on the Israeli side of this argument has now given up on this government. The other side is now deciding if they abandon the Liberals for the more aggressive NDP.

We are irrelevant to the debate not that a different policy would make us more relevant but lurching back and forth certainly doesn't help. Neither domestically nor diplomatically.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Off the current topic, but I've been a bit surprised that Canada's decision to restore funding to UNRWA has not generated much controversy. I think it was the right decision, but the opposition to UNRWA is very well organized.

I think it is the right decision too.

Israel has gone too far in Gaza, and needs to take it down a notch. The plan to eliminate Hamas entirely would likely mean literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinian deaths. This is too much of a price. The west should be trying to mitigate the situation as much as possible.

Netanyahu has succeeded in letting Hamas win the propaganda war. The Israeli offensive has to end, and Netanyahu should resign.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I appreciate how you bring educational clarity to the less well informed members of SSP!

It's necessary to break up the typical Canadian sour grapes small mindedness that is often lacking in facts and driven by our own assumptions and projections regarding the situation. That's how we end up with the ridiculous assumption that the Australians are half-wits whom the Americans are taking advantage of. Obviously, if Canada isn't in a club, it's probably pointless.

Companies and governments are spending tens (or even possibly hundreds) of billions of dollars chasing these technologies. But apparently, we can't see tangible benefits for us. Resource extraction really has dented brains in this country. I swear.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think it is the right decision too.

Israel has gone too far in Gaza, and needs to take it down a notch. The plan to eliminate Hamas entirely would likely mean literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinian deaths. This is too much of a price. The west should be trying to mitigate the situation as much as possible.

Netanyahu has succeeded in letting Hamas win the propaganda war. The Israeli offensive has to end, and Netanyahu should resign.

The Israelis would have much more room to manoeuvre if Likud and Netanyahu weren't letting settlers run amok in the West Bank. Right now it looks less like they care about security than land grabs elsewhere and collective punishment against Palestinians.

While funding UNRWA right now is the right thing to do, significant funders (which actually does include Canada to some extent) should probably start a discussion on real reform there.

[kwoldtimer]

That chart notes that UNRWA's mandate extends to territories other than Gaza, which is something I think people forget.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's necessary to break up the typical Canadian sour grapes small mindedness that is often lacking in facts and driven by our own assumptions and projections regarding the situation. That's how we end up with the ridiculous assumption that the Australians are half-wits whom the Americans are taking advantage of. Obviously, if Canada isn't in a club, it's probably pointless.

Resource extraction really has dented brains in this country. I swear.

Ultimately, one kind of has to accept what the country is at this juncture. Not like what it is, but accept it.

The only thing that can survive multiple governments with respect to foreign affairs and military investment is the near minimum. Go ambitious and one pays for it politically. Opportunities missed are hypotheticals, money spent today is an actual line item.

I'm not even sure how one would drive the conversation to ambition today. A bunch of Ukrainian flags were flown in February/March 2022. A couple of years later? There's not too many of them flying still. The spectre of another Trump Presidency? The last one didn't move the needle, but elicited maximum tut-tutting.

Like any long-term problem which requires long-term planning, it seems beyond the locals' capabilities. Fine, if there's an elite that can continue to drive that conversation beyond the average citizen can do. Or lack of retained elite (they tend to flee to the US) has some upsides, but the loss of strategic vision is a big downside.

Late 40-something guys who never chose a direction in life. Ended up nowhere in a career, with no savings, and feeling their age creep up on them.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Israelis would have much more room to manoeuvre if Likud and Netanyahu weren't letting settlers run amok in the West Bank. Right now it looks less like they care about security than land grabs elsewhere and collective punishment against Palestinians.

While funding UNRWA right now is the right thing to do, significant funders (which actually does include Canada to some extent) should probably start a discussion on real reform there.

For better or probably worse I think if US stays absent especially post 2025 the Gulf states will have to step in. It's kind of shameful Sweden contributes double what the Saudis do. UAE, Qatar absent or nearly so. This will prevent any reform.

Regardless Oct 7 was successful in changing the paradigm. Better or worse for Palestinians very much up for debate but change it has.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Ultimately, one kind of has to accept what the country is at this juncture. Not like what it is, but accept it.

The only thing that can survive multiple governments with respect to foreign affairs and military investment is the near minimum. Go ambitious and one pays for it politically. Opportunities missed are hypotheticals, money spent today is an actual line item.

I'm not even sure how one would drive the conversation to ambition today. A bunch of Ukrainian flags were flown in February/March 2022. A couple of years later? There's not too many of them flying still. The spectre of another Trump Presidency? The last one didn't move the needle, but elicited maximum tut-tutting.

Like any long-term problem which requires long-term planning, it seems beyond the locals' capabilities. Fine, if there's an elite that can continue to drive that conversation beyond the average citizen can do. Or lack of retained elite (they tend to flee to the US) has some upsides, but the loss of strategic vision is a big downside.

Late 40-something guys who never chose a direction in life. Ended up nowhere in a career, with no savings, and feeling their age creep up on them.

We used to be able to recognize economic self-interest in the defence sector. Canada joined the F-35 consortium in 1997 under Chretien while he was still implementing major cuts to the CAF. He recognized that cutting military spending doesn't mean that Canada should pass up industrial opportunities in the defence sector.

Admittedly, things are more difficult now because there's less interest in the US, with sharing the economic benefits with partners who don't participate in a more fulsome manner. Less tolerance for mooching, if you will.

But we can't even begin to have an honest discussion of we're not even honest about the environment. Like say pretending that AUKUS is just a submarine deal while quietly lobbying to be let in.

Also, I wouldn't say we're like a directionless forty something. When it comes to Foreign Affairs, I'd say we're like the guy who regularly just brings a sleeve of Solo Cups to the potluck and then loudly talks about how he pitched in. Now that we're getting invited to fewer potlucks, we're wondering how we're going to eat. And yet, we still don't understand that we need to actually bring something to the table.

[Truenorth00]

Reporting that Canada and Japan are in talks to join AUKUS Pillar Two this year.

https://www.politico.eu/article/auku...-defense-pact/

Great news, if true.

[urbandreamer]

The Canadian military can't even drive on the 401 without rolling over. Even the Gazan army would beat us.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The Israelis would have much more room to manoeuvre if Likud and Netanyahu weren't letting settlers run amok in the West Bank. Right now it looks less like they care about security than land grabs elsewhere and collective punishment against Palestinians.

While funding UNRWA right now is the right thing to do, significant funders (which actually does include Canada to some extent) should probably start a discussion on real reform there.

Exactly. There is no entity other than UNRWA that is logistically capable of providing the emergency on the ground assistance in Gaza that is needed at this exact moment, so they can't be cut off now. But once the situation stabilizes, there needs to be a plan to dissolve UNWRA. There's nothing it does that can't be handled by any other agencies or organizations. All UNWRA really does is perpetuate the absurd myth of multi-generational "refugees".

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think it is the right decision too.

Israel has gone too far in Gaza, and needs to take it down a notch. The plan to eliminate Hamas entirely would likely mean literally hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinian deaths. This is too much of a price. The west should be trying to mitigate the situation as much as possible.

Netanyahu has succeeded in letting Hamas win the propaganda war. The Israeli offensive has to end, and Netanyahu should resign.

There cannot be an end to the offensive without the return of all hostages and the end of Hamas' government in Gaza. That was true five months ago and it's still true today.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Exactly. There is no entity other than UNRWA that is logistically capable of providing the emergency on the ground assistance in Gaza that is needed at this exact moment, so they can't be cut off now. But once the situation stabilizes, there needs to be a plan to dissolve UNWRA. There's nothing it does that can't be handled by any other agencies or organizations. All UNWRA really does is perpetuate the absurd myth of multi-generational "refugees".

Until there are no more Palestinian refugees/"Palestinian refugees", there can be no winding down of UNRWA, unless it's to be replaced by UNRWA under another name. UNRWA is just fulfilling a service mandate to deal with an ongoing problem created by others.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

The Canadian military can't even drive on the 401 without rolling over. Even the Gazan army would beat us.

The Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicles have a mild history of these rollovers but I bet it will come down to a lack of experience and I hope the crew walked away.
To TrueNorths earlier suggestion these vehicles should be donated to Ukraine since the 250 American donated vehicles are starting their journey there.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Until there are no more Palestinian refugees/"Palestinian refugees", there can be no winding down of UNRWA, unless it's to be replaced by UNRWA under another name. UNRWA is just fulfilling a service mandate to deal with an ongoing problem created by others.

UNRWA enables the problem, though. Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, etc need to care for their citizens, as the "refugees" are, given that they were born in those countries and so were their parents and in many cases even their grandparents. UNRWA allows these countries to implement a horrifically racist policy of chronically neglecting a portion of their own people on the basis of their ancestry. If I was born in Canada in the 1990s to a parent born in Canada in the 1960s to a grandparent born in Canada in the 1940s, I can't seriously claim I'm not a Canadian just because my great grandma was born in some other country in 1930.

If these people face humanitarian needs that's what organizations like MSF, the WFP, and UNICEF, are for.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Reporting that Canada and Japan are in talks to join AUKUS Pillar Two this year.

https://www.politico.eu/article/auku...-defense-pact/

Great news, if true.

Interesting to see South Korea mentioned in the article as a potential future member too. I can't help but wonder if there's potential for AUKUS pillar 2 to serve as a forum for Japan, South Korea and Canada to cooperate on lithium ion sub tech advancement, if all manage to join.

Japan's and South Korea's Soryu and KSS-III subs are impressive, and I'm sure both will be pitched to Canada for its sub replacement program.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Until there are no more Palestinian refugees/"Palestinian refugees", there can be no winding down of UNRWA, unless it's to be replaced by UNRWA under another name. UNRWA is just fulfilling a service mandate to deal with an ongoing problem created by others.

There have been many conflicts that created large number of refugees. This is the only one where the international community encourages them to remain refugees indefinitely. Imagine if the UN was running camps for Germans displaced after WW2 and their descendants were still expected to live in squalid conditions.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Interesting to see South Korea mentioned in the article as a potential future member too. I can't help but wonder if there's potential for AUKUS pillar 2 to serve as a forum for Japan, South Korea and Canada to cooperate on lithium ion sub tech advancement, if all manage to join.

Japan's and South Korea's Soryu and KSS-III subs are impressive, and I'm sure both will be pitched to Canada for its sub replacement program.

Admiral Topshee has openly asked for a Sub replacement program as has the Senate defence committee. The Government however is probably putting what little effort they have into probably seeing if they can dump Subs altogether.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Interesting to see South Korea mentioned in the article as a potential future member too. I can't help but wonder if there's potential for AUKUS pillar 2 to serve as a forum for Japan, South Korea and Canada to cooperate on lithium ion sub tech advancement, if all manage to join.

Japan's and South Korea's Soryu and KSS-III subs are impressive, and I'm sure both will be pitched to Canada for its sub replacement program.

We have NATO as an alliance of like-minded countries in Europe. I wonder if this has the potential to evolve into something similar in the Asia-Pacific region.

Babcock who have in the in-service support contract on the Canadian subs are also involved in the South Korean sub program. Last summer Babcock and Hanwha Ocean put out a press release to work together on a proposal for new Canadian subs.

[VANRIDERFAN]

A view from the UK on the vapidness of "Soft Power" that is so often the hall mark of Canada's Foreign "Policy"

https://thecritic.co.uk/the-fallacy-...cid=80a249131f