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  #661  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2024, 4:38 PM
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WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Is that true? I thought the issue was that the manual door release isn't in an obvious position and in normal use people don't need to activate it and therefore are often not aware of its existence. That's what I've read about the Models 3 and Y, anyway.

See: https://lucidowners.com/attachments/screenshot_20220521-202236_rif-is-fun-jpg.2279/

Edit: Or maybe you're talking about the rear doors?
Model Ys now have manual release rear doors too.
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  #662  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2024, 5:11 PM
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The whole reason why MCAS even exists in the first place? Because Boeing's engineers had accidentally redesigned the 737 Max to pitch up... so instead of fixing the weight balance like they should and stabilizing the plane... they had the software automatically pitch it down instead. No amount of training will 100% compensate for a design flaw.

Ditto AVs. More people drive than fly, and one lazy team of car engineers can (and have) hurt a lot more people at once than Boeing ever could. Did you know some Teslas don't have a manual door release?
At its heart that was all done to save money by not developing a new airframe. Simplified, take the ancient 737, slap some new engines in it and try to software their way out of the problems created.
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  #663  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2024, 8:08 PM
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But when it makes a dumb mistake a "human would never make", people lose their ability to understand statistics.
This, but unironically. People aren't 100% rational.

Also see previous answers about liability and design flaws; a few idiot humans are a few idiot humans, but several AV collisions recalls the entire fleet (and may or may not trigger class-action lawsuits), so the stakes are much higher.
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  #664  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2024, 9:48 PM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is offline
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Felt like I'd add to this thread by saying that I saw an Uber pick up a passenger from the middle of a residential intersection.

That is all.
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  #665  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2024, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
This, but unironically. People aren't 100% rational.
People are barely 10% rational. ������

There are a lot of studies which suggest our decisions are made unconsciously and the "thinking" part of our brains simply rationalizes those decisions after the fact.
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  #666  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2024, 11:30 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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I take strong exception to this. The MCAS software that caused the complete loss of two 737 MAX aircraft and all aboard had IMHO two major flaws that were not the fault of the hapless pilots who fell victim to it.

The first is that the software inexplicably relied on the inputs of only one of two redundant angle of attack sensors. If the active sensor suffered a failure that caused erroneous readings, the software would wrest elevator control from the pilots even though the other sensor was still providing valid data. This resulted in a single point of failure that could doom the aircraft. It's a patently absurd design decision to have redundant sensors upon which the safety of the aircraft relies and then to completely fail to check to see if those sensors agree with each other or not.

The second is that in it's eagerness to certify a new version of the 737 without having to update the aircraft's type certification, which would have required costly retraining of pilots, the very existence of the newly-introduced MCAS software and its behaviour was hidden from pilots. They literally were unaware of its presence and what it could do. Pilots had no training for scenarios where faulty angle of attack indications could cause MCAS to pitch the aircraft's nose down using a force stronger than they were able to counteract by pulling back on the control stick. Post-accident investigations have concluded that pilots would likely not have had enough time to understand the what was happening to the aircraft and recover from it before it was too late.

There's a good reason that the 737 MAX was grounded for the better part of two years - it has nothing to do with pilot error and everything to do with the design and implementation of the aircraft's flight control system.
Sooo,...

STILL human error, right?

Whether it was the lack of proper training or instruction on the new software, the failure of informing the pilots of existence of said new system, or (poor) design and implemenation of said flight system (both of which were presumbaly done by humans).

You're just taking exception as to what point the human error occurred.

The point remains that the software doesn't act sentiently and doesn't do what it wasn't programmed to do, or fail to do what it was programmed not to fail to do.

Maybe the pilots in those particular cases weren't directly at fault, but their failure/inability to rectify what was going wrong at the moment still lies at the hands of their fellow Homo Sapiens and not non-sentient lines of code.

And at the end of the day, we STILL have the over-riding fact which even you didn't dispute, that ever since the advent of automated flight control systems, the overwhelming vast majority of flight crashes that have happened since have still been as a result of pilot (....or if you prefer, "human") error, rather than the systems themselves.
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  #667  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2024, 12:09 AM
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... Who do you think programs the systems?
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  #668  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2024, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by aberdeen5698 View Post
Edit: Or maybe you're talking about the rear doors?
well that seems dangerous... i wasnt aware of that. eek.

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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
And don't get me started on Ford's plan to make an AV which can repo itself...
thats also eek. it reminds me of the most infuriating parts of this new tech age. subscriptions. yes make me subscribe to use heated seats. that stuff should be illegal.

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Sooo,...

STILL human error, right?
isnt the software for self driving made by humans???
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  #669  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2024, 12:37 AM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
... Who do you think programs the systems?
Well, that's sort of my point is that people act as if these automated systems - be they the autopilot of planes or autopilots of self-driving cars are less reliable than human drivers/pilots and more dangerous - despite statistics showing the opposite that human in control are more error-prone and more given to accidents or crashes - when the reality would likely be that they would be no better or worse because at the end of the day they are created and conceived by human beings with all their inherent flaws and imperfections.

Indeed, the reality is that the software is only as good as the person who programmed it and the system it was implemented in.

But when they are programmed correctly and implemented as they should with proper training and instruction for any human that should oversee them, they demonstrate better safety records than humans on their own.

Perhaps we're more comfortable in the event of crashes and errors if it's a human being behind the wheel or at the cockpit - maybe because we can then directly hold them more accountable than a room full of faceless programmers, with each only responsible for a part and none for the whole.

I liken it a bit to the fear that most people have over flying despite it statistically being the safest mode of travel.

It's more a psychological block or issue that we as human beings have with the perception than is the reality of what actually is - be it the fear of flying generally speaking or the use of automated systems in flying or now with self-driving cars.
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  #670  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2025, 7:03 AM
captainamerica captainamerica is offline
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I understand where you're going with this, and you're correct in many respects. It's convenient to blame human error as the primary cause when something goes awry, particularly when systems are intricate and the technology is not well understood or properly executed. I concur that the software itself does not make autonomous decisions but merely acts according to what it has been instructed to do. So, if something fails, it often comes down to a series of decisions, miscommunications, or design flaws made by humans that led to the error.

I don’t think anyone is disputing the role humans play in accidents, and yes, we’ve seen pilot error as a major factor in crashes, even with advanced flight systems. But, I would say that how we train pilots, system design, and procedure setup still has a way to go in order to reduce those mistakes. A human may not necessarily be at fault in a given scenario, but the question is really how the system and training create those conditions for failure to begin with.

You're right on to say that software doesn't execute itself, but the issue is: what's the greater context we're placing these systems within? Is the system providing sufficient backup when a human mistake occurs? Does it provide the pilot with sufficient opportunity to do something about it before it becomes too far out of hand? I believe it's a question of both human mistake and the way we make these systems correct those mistakes.

Ultimately, human error is not going to disappear, but making systems better so that the risk of that error is minimized could be the solution.
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  #671  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2025, 7:19 AM
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Has Elon Musk signed up on SSP?
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  #672  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2025, 5:31 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Has Elon Musk signed up on SSP?
Wrong character he roles plays as Iron Man.
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  #673  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2025, 12:04 AM
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Why does it always seem to be in Richmond?

$13K meted out in fines in Richmond RCMP ride-hailing sting
More than $79,000 was given out in fines in 2024 to drivers illegally operating ride-hailing services.
Maria Rantanen
about 6 hours ago

A one-day operation by law enforcement resulted in six drivers being caught in Richmond operating illegal ride-hailing companies.

On Feb. 8, Richmond RCMP and Commercial Vehicle Safety and Enforcement (CVSE) officers used unauthorized ride-hailing apps to book rides, resulting in $13,343 in fines issued to the six drivers.

Fines given out were for operating without a licence, having the wrong class of driver’s licence, failure to display valid certificate. The City of Richmond also issued bylaw tickets for operating without a business licence.

In addition, three “repeat offenders” will have to pay vehicle towing and storage fees, RCMP said.

In 2024, law enforcement held eight similar sting operations, resulting in more than $79,000 in fines to 35 ride-hailing drivers operating illegally.

Fines included $41,400 for operating without a valid licence, more than $9,000 for operating with the wrong driver’s licence, $11,000 for failure to display a valid certificate and more than $15,000 in municipal fines for operating without a business licence....


https://www.richmond-news.com/local-news/fines-given-in-richmond-rcmp-ride-hailing-sting-10295565
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  #674  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2025, 5:15 PM
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Uber and Lyft drivers will be out of work in a few short years. Waymo now has a larger market share than Lyft in San Francisco. To be clear, the Waymo taxi's are 100% driverless.

Once economies of scale kick in for driverless taxi's, the cost of a ride will come down significantly. People who normally commute using public transit will start to use driverless taxi's. These cars are going to take over the public transportation industry.

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Waymo’s celestial ascent into the cultural zeitgeist — a rise that has been propelled by dystopian memes and sheer, futuristic novelty — has only been matched by how it continues swallowing its competition. The Alphabet-owned autonomous driving company saw explosive exponential growth in ridership in 2024, with driverless rides increasing from 77,000 to more than 312,000 lifts by August of last year alone, according to the California DMV; as of publishing, Waymo asserts that 30% of their rides are to local small businesses.

Independent contractors for Lyft and Uber have been saying they’re “cooked” for a while, citing massive declines in available requests as a result of Waymo’s success. (This, however, is a tandem issue: Waymo’s ride-hailing operations in San Francisco coincided with the increased number of regional rideshare drivers that began working during and after the pandemic.) But now factual data is showing that the aforementioned broiling is, indeed, happening … and at a rate quicker than once thought.

According to YipitData, a data and analytics firm based out of New York City, Waymo’s gross bookings from August of 2023 to April of this year have surpassed Lyft’s in market share. The twenty-month data analysis highlighted Uber’s dominance in San Francisco ridership — well over 50% of all trips booked via a ridesharing application were done on Uber throughout the analysis — but showed, perhaps more surprisingly, how quickly Waymo clambered into the commonplace. Waymo is also currently beating Lyft, a company that has operated rides in San Francisco since 2012, in total gross bookings.
https://underscoresf.com/in-san-francisco-waymo-has-now-bested-lyft-uber-is-next/
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  #675  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2025, 5:40 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Uber and Lyft drivers will be out of work in a few short years. Waymo now has a larger market share than Lyft in San Francisco. To be clear, the Waymo taxi's are 100% driverless.

Once economies of scale kick in for driverless taxi's, the cost of a ride will come down significantly. People who normally commute using public transit will start to use driverless taxi's. These cars are going to take over the public transportation industry.
I've heard people who have used Waymo say it's super cool. I bet there is a certain novelty factor, but of course price will be the difference. Waymo cars area really expensive, I'd be curious if they are losing money.

Notably Uber lost tens of Billions over the years before becoming profitable.

Sadly we are probably years behind the US in seeing this in Canadian cities, just like Uber.
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  #676  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2025, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
People who normally commute using public transit will start to use driverless taxi's. These cars are going to take over the public transportation industry.
Yeah, that's not going to happen. If it did, gridlock would immediately send everyone back to transit.

There simply isn't a better way to move lots of people at the same time than shared vehicles. And rapid transit with a dedicated right of way is king.
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  #677  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2025, 11:53 PM
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Once economies of scale kick in for driverless taxi's, the cost of a ride will come down significantly. People who normally commute using public transit will start to use driverless taxi's. These cars are going to take over the public transportation industry.
Doubtful.

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  #678  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2025, 4:07 AM
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It's the next leap forward in the transportation industry. Surely there will be a paradigm shift for public transit.
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  #679  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2025, 4:16 AM
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Buses and trains will always be the real paradigm as long as the laws of physics only allow for one commuter per seat. Reinventing the taxi over and over again isn't a forward leap, it's a roundabout.
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  #680  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2025, 12:16 PM
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It's the next leap forward in the transportation industry. Surely there will be a paradigm shift for public transit.
Oh, there absolutely will be. The same technology that enables driverless cars will enable driverless buses too. In fact its even easier to automate transit vehicles because they follow a fixed route and so they can take advantage of more comprehensive mapping data.

Since labour is one of the biggest costs of public transit, this has the potential to make it much cheaper, which could increase ridership further.
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