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  #101  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2024, 6:50 PM
DTcrawler DTcrawler is offline
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Originally Posted by Westbro View Post
Good! The federal government eithers needs to "shit or get off the pot" when it comes to trying to block towers near the central experimental farm.

In the open lay out what would be acceptable and where. I thought these were scientists for gods sake. If it is an existential threat to the farm then present where and what level of shadow impacts things.

Right now it sounds like they are just trying to wrap NIMBY arguments in a science blanket.
My thoughts exactly, especially when they describe the proposal as a threat to “maintaining greenery/picturesque landscape” in their list of concerns. Very scientific.
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  #102  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2024, 10:07 PM
pattherat pattherat is offline
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Originally Posted by rocketphish View Post
Towers poised for approval despite concerns they'll spoil farm research
Development will have 'deleterious and irreparable effects' on the Central Experimental Farm, scientists argue

Elyse Skura · CBC
Posted: Jan 27, 2024 4:00 AM EST | Last Updated: 6 hours ago




Three high-rise buildings could soon tower over Ottawa's Central Experimental Farm after city planners decided the shadows they'll cast won't compromise the agricultural research conducted there.

In Novermber, city councillors approved one 24-storey tower to be built at 780 Baseline Rd., but they put off a decision on two others — at 24 and 32 storeys tall — to allow for more discussion with concerned scientists at Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada (AAFC).

"It was a lot of work, a lot of efforts on behalf of our group and AgCanada," said Joey Theberge, owner of proponent Theberge Homes. "I think it's a good outcome that was a good compromise between both parties."

But a report by city staff shows a rift remains.

<more>

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/to...ns-they-ll-spoil-farm-research-1.7096036
I believe I have the most important question. What will happen to the original Lone Star!?

(Just kidding, if they were a shadow of their former selves I would be sad, but now they are overpriced with reduced portions)
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  #103  
Old Posted Jan 28, 2024, 3:51 PM
Westbro Westbro is offline
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Originally Posted by DTcrawler View Post
My thoughts exactly, especially when they describe the proposal as a threat to “maintaining greenery/picturesque landscape” in their list of concerns. Very scientific.
It bothers me further because there are A LOT of fields that are on hills either east/west or south slopes. Nearly all of which lose probably an equivalent amount of sun just to normal conditions.

You also have to consider that Ag-Can has a huge amount of land (Barrhaven for example, not to mention elsewhere in Ontario and Canada) that is not in any risk of ever being in shadows.

Methinks they could maybe afford to define an acceptable amount of shadowing and transition the affected lands to different studies/uses.
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  #104  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2024, 9:33 PM
Ottawacurious Ottawacurious is offline
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  #105  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2024, 9:34 PM
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‘It’s been a difficult fall,’ developer says, as Baseline highrises approved by city committee

Mia Jensen, OBJ
January 31, 2024 3:09 PM ET


A development proposal that will ultimately see three mixed-use highrises constructed on Baseline Road at Fisher Avenue has been approved by the city’s planning and housing committee, despite concerns about shadowing on the nearby Central Experimental Farm.

The proposal filed by local developer Theberge Homes includes plans to build two 24-storey towers and a 32-storey tower at 780 Baseline Rd., the site of a strip mall that contains the original Lone Star Texas Grill.

The first phase of the project, which included one of the 24-storey highrises, was approved by the committee in November. At the time, staff were directed to continue analysis on the remaining towers due to concerns that shadows from the buildings would disrupt agricultural research at the neighbouring experimental farm.

In response to some of those concerns, the committee on Wednesday approved an amendment to increase the maximum podium height of the buildings, which reduces the overall height of the towers and lessens the potential for shadowing, according to staff.

The development would include 1,089 residential units and nearly 31,000 square feet of ground-floor commercial space split among the three buildings.

“It’s been a difficult fall,” Joey Theberge, president of Theberge Homes, told committee members. “It’s been a two-year back-and-forth with the city. There’s been a lot of mitigation and renderings done over the last couple of years.”

Theberge said the company has met with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, the federal department raising concerns over shadowing at the farm, to discuss the development.

“It was a pretty productive meeting, actually,” he said. “They mentioned some of their concerns and I shared what my concerns were and we decided that we’d keep working together over the next few years as we get into the site plans for phase two.”

A number of studies have been done over the past few months to assess shadowing concerns, not only for the Theberge development, but on other proposals around the Central Experimental Farm.

Prior to approving the proposal Wednesday, multiple committee members expressed frustration at the lack of participation from the federal government to help come to a consensus on concerns around the farm.

“We are tasked with approving housing; we are tasked with addressing our housing supply crisis,” said Somerset Coun. Ariel Troster.

“Intensification along Carling (Avenue) was something that was very clearly communicated when the city debated the new Official Plan. At that point, the federal government did not come forward with concerns about the experimental farm … I’m uncomfortable with the notion that we’re being asked to approve something that has an expert challenge lodged against it but there doesn’t seem to be a perfect solution here.”

Committee vice-chair and Stittsville Coun. Glen Gower said the committee’s priority is to approve housing projects with the policies and tools it has on hand. On those grounds, he said the Theberge development was reasonable.

“These shadows will have an impact in some way on the farm, but they’re not preventing research,” he said. “They might change the specific research happening there in some way, but it doesn’t affect the size of the farm, the ability to farm, the ability to do research. I just don’t see a reason why we wouldn’t approve this development today.”

The full proposal will go before city council on Feb. 7.

https://obj.ca/difficult-fall-developer-baseline-highrises-approved/
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  #106  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2024, 11:16 PM
Ottawacurious Ottawacurious is offline
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"Hoping to lessen the shadow effects, the committee passed a motion Wednesday increasing the height of the podium surrounding the towers to seven storeys, a move it hopes will allow the developer to reduce the planned height of the towers."

I guess it depends how tall those 7 stories of a podium are? I'd rather they build something taller and narrower.
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  #107  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2024, 11:28 PM
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Baseline highrises another encroachment on Experimental Farm, critics say
The city's planning and housing committee considered, and approved, a zoning bylaw amendment for towers of 32 and 24 storeys at the farm's southeast corner.

Blair Crawford, Ottawa Citizen
Published Jan 31, 2024 • Last updated 5 minutes ago • 3 minute read




Will two highrise towers on Baseline Road adjacent to the the Central Experimental Farm steal its sunshine?

That was the immediate question faced by the City of Ottawa’s planning and housing committee Wednesday as its members considered, and approved, a zoning bylaw amendment for towers of 32 and 24 storeys on Baseline Road at the farm’s southeast corner. Defenders of the farm say they will do so, with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada in a letter saying the towers’ shadows will make tracts of farmland “unusable for most field experiments … and unsuitable for research purposes.”

But, with the city trying to solve a housing shortage and with more development expected along the farm’s margins, a larger question looms: Who will protect the farm?

“We recognize that there will be shadow impacts on the farm if Carling Avenue, if Fisher, if Baseline are intensified to the degree that our official plan contemplates,” planning committee chair Jeff Leiper told reporters after the meeting.

Echoing the fears of one of the public submissions opposed to the Baseline development, Leiper expressed concern that the experimental farm would suffer” death from a thousand cuts” as more and more highrises were built beside it.

“What kind of research can be done there? How does the federal government see the long-term role of the farm. Those are critical questions to answer, but it’s not incumbent on the City of Ottawa or city council to answer those questions,” Leiper said.

<more>

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...achment-on-experimental-farm-critics-say
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  #108  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2024, 11:58 PM
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VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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Re: The Shadows.
This is a non issue. The time of year where these buildings will cast a long shadow is the winter which is when the fields are fallow. During the growing season the shadow cast across the road will be minimal to non existent. Also plants can survive a shadow that moves with the travelling sun.

Anyone looking at a map and the path of the sun throughout the year can see this.
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 1:43 AM
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Re: The Shadows.
This is a non issue. The time of year where these buildings will cast a long shadow is the winter which is when the fields are fallow. During the growing season the shadow cast across the road will be minimal to non existent. Also plants can survive a shadow that moves with the travelling sun.

Anyone looking at a map and the path of the sun throughout the year can see this.
It's been a heap of bullshit from the very start, a NIMBY/BANANA agenda that got traction from the media and got completely overblown.
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ottawacurious View Post
"Hoping to lessen the shadow effects, the committee passed a motion Wednesday increasing the height of the podium surrounding the towers to seven storeys, a move it hopes will allow the developer to reduce the planned height of the towers."

I guess it depends how tall those 7 stories of a podium are? I'd rather they build something taller and narrower.
No one in the city seems to understand what causes shadows.
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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 6:42 PM
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VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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Calculation of the sun position and shadow cast from a 100ft (or meter I couldn't tell) tower on June 20th. Shadow barely touches the farm.

https://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 7:36 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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In all fairness, let's see an assessment of shadows through the entire growing season, not just on June 20th, when the sun is highest in the sky.
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 7:39 PM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Re: The Shadows.
This is a non issue. The time of year where these buildings will cast a long shadow is the winter which is when the fields are fallow. During the growing season the shadow cast across the road will be minimal to non existent. Also plants can survive a shadow that moves with the travelling sun.

Anyone looking at a map and the path of the sun throughout the year can see this.
Perhaps, you should understand agriculture and horticulture and sun requirements for crops a little better.
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 7:46 PM
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VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
In all fairness, let's see an assessment of shadows through the entire growing season, not just on June 20th, when the sun is highest in the sky.
Sure, and the above representation is for the entire day from sun up to sundown.

But okay.
Here is May 5 (when they start to plant)



To September 30 (when they should be done harvest or there has been a frost)



At no time is the farm adversely affected by a tall building on Baseline.
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 7:50 PM
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VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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Perhaps, you should understand agriculture and horticulture and sun requirements for crops a little better.
Ha Ha Ha
Born and raised on a farm, and farmed myself for 6 years prior to going on to another career.

Maybe you should understand that the sun and its shadows move throughout the day and plants will "suffer" the pain of being in a shadow for 20 minutes.

By your reasoning the plants wouldn't survive the night, right?
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 9:54 PM
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Come on folks! It's not about whether a plant can survive periodic shadowing during the day (of course it can). The CEF is collecting long-term data under controlled conditions... in this case from fields that have never experienced shadows before, to ascertain the impact from factors such as fertilization, pests, watering, crop rotation, tilling techniques, climate change, etc. Newly collected data can no longer be added to the long-term studies conducted in these fields once the growing conditions are changed because it becomes more difficult to pinpoint the reason for changes to crop health or yields. Did a particular crop do worse this year because July was warmer than usual or because the field is partially in shadow now? New studies can be conducted, sure, but the results can't be compared on an equal footing with the old data any longer.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2024, 10:55 PM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Ha Ha Ha
Born and raised on a farm, and farmed myself for 6 years prior to going on to another career.

Maybe you should understand that the sun and its shadows move throughout the day and plants will "suffer" the pain of being in a shadow for 20 minutes.

By your reasoning the plants wouldn't survive the night, right?
Seems like you are definitely the most qualified to speak here from everyone commenting here, considering you have actual experience that correlates to this. I'll go with what you're saying here.

Either way it's on track to be coming up so... the Central Experimental farm will have to adjust regardless.
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2024, 12:12 AM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
Calculation of the sun position and shadow cast from a 100ft (or meter I couldn't tell) tower on June 20th. Shadow barely touches the farm.

https://www.sunearthtools.com/dp/tools/pos_sun.php

Honestly - I have no idea how to read that graphic. Which part of it shows where the shadows are at that time?

Edit - I'm actually in favour of this project - but I don't think this particular image tells us anything useful.

Last edited by vtecyo; Feb 2, 2024 at 12:40 AM. Reason: more info
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2024, 12:54 AM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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I've found something better - https://shademap.app/@45.36953,-75.70432,15.09474z,1717261054049t,0b,0p,0m

If you use this tool you can see how shadows from existing buildings move across the ground. The link above is to a 100m high tower at Hogs Back, if you just imagine it at the proposed building site you can see how far the shadows would go at various times.

I'm not sure how it could be used to place a new building, maybe with the paid version of it...
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2024, 2:04 AM
vtecyo vtecyo is offline
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You know what's even better - I've discovered the free version of Sketchup - which has a map placement option for models - and a shadow calculation tool!

So I went ahead and made a very approximate model of the towers - minus the podium - and scrolled through every hour of sunlight on approximately the first of every month.

You can see it here as a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFxpgKACtEg

The link works -but the embed isn't for some reason?
Video Link


Basically - the west side of Fisher gets some shadowing before noon during Ottawa's growing season - (let's call that May through October).

Last edited by rocketphish; Feb 2, 2024 at 3:58 AM. Reason: Fixed bad video link
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