Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I hope your route was along River Road and the dyke, God help you if you try to bike through Richmond.

Yes, we started at Queensborough and made a loop around Lulu, sticking mostly to River Road, Railway Ave, and Dyke Road, plus some rural grids.

I vaguely recall some exceptionally confusing bike routes through suburbia, but thankfully I wasn't leading the ride.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

I am confused. What is "on-road"? I assumed you meant at-grade, crossing regular traffic intersections with timed traffic lights. Are these the same? I would agree, but execution is huge.

Pretty much; the Broadway and Surrey streetcars were what I had in mind. Basically having their own lights and ROW, but still hogging the road/intersections.

At the risk of being a broken record - since SSP's beaten this one to death over the last 10+ years - what I'm trying to say is that after a certain threshold (speed, size, frequency, etc), it doesn't matter how well-executed the tram is: it's going to become an obstacle to other road users like pedestrians and buses, not just drivers, unless the city and transit agency suck it up and bury the chokepoints.

'Sides, if the downtown segment's underground, that leaves more room on the Greenway for bikers/rollers/pedestrians.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Pretty much; the Broadway and Surrey streetcars were what I had in mind. Basically having their own lights and ROW, but still hogging the road/intersections.

At the risk of being a broken record - since SSP's beaten this one to death over the last 10+ years - what I'm trying to say is that after a certain threshold (speed, size, frequency, etc), it doesn't matter how well-executed the tram is: it's going to become an obstacle to other road users like pedestrians and buses, not just drivers, unless the city and transit agency suck it up and bury the chokepoints.

'Sides, if the downtown segment's underground, that leaves more room on the Greenway for bikers/rollers/pedestrians.

But the on-street, sometimes in its own right-of-way and sometimes in mixed traffic version was $1.1bn in 2021, without the Arbutus stretch. Burying it (even just to get it under the new Broadway Line) would be multiple billions and hugely disruptive, which would make its likelihood of being built slim to none, (and slim just left town). Anything other than a cheap-as-it-can-be-built surface tram-type streetcar should probably be in the Fantasy Thread.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Again, not saying it wouldn't be, or that it shouldn't be moved there. I think we're talking past each other.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

- took more than a decade to build the bus mall at Brighouse

I heard they didn't want the bus mall at first because it was too sterile or something. Could also be related to not being able to get the land for it, but they could have at least put the bus stops closer to the station

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Changing City

But the on-street, sometimes in its own right-of-way and sometimes in mixed traffic version was $1.1bn in 2021, without the Arbutus stretch. Burying it (even just to get it under the new Broadway Line) would be multiple billions and hugely disruptive, which would make its likelihood of being built slim to none, (and slim just left town). Anything other than a cheap-as-it-can-be-built surface tram-type streetcar should probably be in the Fantasy Thread.

Elevated crossings at 49, 41, King Edward, and 16; at-grade crossing with gates at 33rd (it's far enough from a major intersection that traffic has room to que, and with a two- or four-car trains drivers wouldn't be waiting long); cut-and-cover at Broadway until it connects with the trench (I know the plan is to not use the trench. I think this would be a mistake.); and close all other local streets along the Arbutus corridor.

I understand that this would be very expensive, but it should be done right or not at all. Elevated crossings and closed local streets would make the pedestrian and cyclist experience along the greenway much better as well.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I understand that this would be very expensive, but it should be done right or not at all.

I vote the latter, and it mystifies me why so many seem in such a rush to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a service that can't be justified on the basis of demand for at least a few decades, if that.

The ROW is protected now, that's the most critical thing. Let's not put the cart before the horse.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I vote the latter, and it mystifies me why so many seem in such a rush to spend an exorbitant amount of money on a service that can't be justified on the basis of demand for at least a few decades, if that.

The ROW is protected now, that's the most critical thing. Let's not put the cart before the horse.

I think some of the line could be justified a lot sooner than that. Simply reviving the Olympic Line as a shuttle between Senakw, GI, OV, and Science World could be justifiable and may be the cheapest part of the whole alignment.

But I agree, the Arbutus section won't be needed until the west side sees a lot of densification and won't be a priority until three or four Skytrain projects after the SLS and UBC are complete.

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I heard they didn't want the bus mall at first because it was too sterile or something. Could also be related to not being able to get the land for it, but they could have at least put the bus stops closer to the station

Translink wanted a typical bus loop. The city reject the idea as they wanted bus stops on the street. At the end they settled for the current bus mall design which is a glorified cul-de-sac. All the delays costed them the chance to better integrate it with the adjacent development.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/richmond-brighouse-station-new-bus-loop

City staff wrote their reasons in a 2006 report: A traditional suburban-type, off-street bus loop would create “a negative appeal to the City Centre and is sterile use of the land” and “degrades the pedestrian environment around the station.”

Same thing is happening to the bus terminus in Steveston. The city just hates bus loops. What they settled on barely qualifies as an upgrade.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/steveston-bus-exchange-translink-richmond-proposal

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I think some of the line could be justified a lot sooner than that. Simply reviving the Olympic Line as a shuttle between Senakw, GI, OV, and Science World could be justifiable and may be the cheapest part of the whole alignment.

Agreed.
Plus that segment is the "central portion" that would have access to a spur on the False Creek Flats for a maintenance yard.

[Migrant_Coconut]

On the third hand, without Arbutus and Main/Science World to anchor the termini, the streetcar attracts no commuters and it's pretty much just a Canada Line shuttle for the tourists.

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Translink wanted a typical bus loop. The city reject the idea as they wanted bus stops on the street. At the end they settled for the current bus mall design which is a glorified cul-de-sac. All the delays costed them the chance to better integrate it with the adjacent development.

City staff wrote their reasons in a 2006 report: A traditional suburban-type, off-street bus loop would create “a negative appeal to the City Centre and is sterile use of the land” and “degrades the pedestrian environment around the station.”

Duh. TransLink's not allowed to ruin Richmond's walkability or land use - that's City Hall's job.

Gotta appreciate the irony of their opposition to bus lanes disrupting traffic when they originally had much worse ideas for the buses...

[simons]

In reviewing council resolutions for affected municipalities regarding BRT, it appears that the only municipalities that haven’t or declined to approve a resolution supporting BRT are District of West Vancouver and City of Richmond (being the . My guess for the top contenders for the first BRT routes are:
- Surrey Central/King George
- Lougheed Highway (Coquitlam/Maple Ridge)
- Golden Ears Bridge (Maple Ridge/Langley)
- if West Vancouver plays ball, Park Royal/Metrotown

Less likely:
- Marine Dr to 22nd St (but potentially RapidBus)
- Hastings Street (given Burnaby staff’s unwillingness to touch parking lanes)
- Scott Road R6 route

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by simons

My guess for the top contenders for the first BRT routes are:
- Surrey Central/King George
- Lougheed Highway (Coquitlam/Maple Ridge)
- Golden Ears Bridge (Maple Ridge/Langley)
- if West Vancouver plays ball, Park Royal/Metrotown

Less likely:
- Marine Dr to 22nd St (but potentially RapidBus)
- Hastings Street (given Burnaby staff’s unwillingness to touch parking lanes)
- Scott Road R6 route

Broadly agree with your guesses, though I'd bump down Lougheed Hwy since PoCo wants significant infrastructure improvements as a precondition to BRT (i.e. bridge replacement, https://www.tricitynews.com/local-news/b...-will-the-tri-cities-get-one-too-7653012)

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by simons

- if West Vancouver plays ball, Park Royal/Metrotown

Why would you ever assume West Vancouver would play ball?

Remember that even West Vancouver bus drivers are opposed to the existing North Shore R2 rapid bus.

It's a joke municipality.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Broadly agree with your guesses, though I'd bump down Lougheed Hwy since PoCo wants significant infrastructure improvements as a precondition to BRT (i.e. bridge replacement, https://www.tricitynews.com/local-news/b...-will-the-tri-cities-get-one-too-7653012)

I'd rearrange the order (includes all 9 options) to...

- Surrey Central to White Rock
- Golden Ears Bridge (Maple Ridge / Langley)
- Metrotown to Phibbs (to Park Royal as RapidBus)
- Marine Dr to 22nd St
- Scott Road R6 route

Less likely:
- Lougheed Highway (Coquitlam / Maple Ridge)
- Hastings Street (given Burnaby staff’s unwillingness to touch parking lanes)
- Lynn Valley to Downtown / Lonsdale (Lions Gate Bridge)
- Richmond Centre to Metrotown (Knight Street Bridge)

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Why would you ever assume West Vancouver would play ball?

Remember that even West Vancouver bus drivers are opposed to the existing North Shore R2 rapid bus.

It's a joke municipality.

While I'm not endorsing West Van's transit issues, for clarity it is important to note that the bus drivers were opposed to extending the R2 beyond Park Royal, not the existing service. The article also suggests that their concerns lie more in protecting their union's jobs which they fear would be lost if routes are transferred to Coast Mountain instead of the Blue Bus.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I think some of the line could be justified a lot sooner than that. Simply reviving the Olympic Line as a shuttle between Senakw, GI, OV, and Science World could be justifiable and may be the cheapest part of the whole alignment.

But I agree, the Arbutus section won't be needed until the west side sees a lot of densification and won't be a priority until three or four Skytrain projects after the SLS and UBC are complete.

A former COV planner has told me that the ROW will likely never see any rail transportation return. Translink is not interested in this since it's faster and cheaper to run a bus.

Much of the lands the ROW sits on between OV and Granville Island could eventually be filled in for redevelopment (there is immense pressure to widen Charleson and Lameys Mill Road.) Some renderings did show a widened road to accommodate increased traffic with towers in the area.

Touched on it in the Streetcar thread but it's also doubtful the Arbutus Corridor will ever see any form of streetcar/LRT on it. There would be massive opposition from residents and cycling commuters, and also concerns about safety.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

While I'm not endorsing West Van's transit issues, for clarity it is important to note that the bus drivers were opposed to extending the R2 beyond Park Royal, not the existing service. The article also suggests that their concerns lie more in protecting their union's jobs which they fear would be lost if routes are transferred to Coast Mountain instead of the Blue Bus.

It's a no-brainer that improved express transit service tends to feed and consume more feeder bus service, but Blue Bus has the same mentality as the rest of the municipality: Fear of change.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by ilikeredheads

Translink wanted a typical bus loop. The city reject the idea as they wanted bus stops on the street. At the end they settled for the current bus mall design which is a glorified cul-de-sac. All the delays costed them the chance to better integrate it with the adjacent development.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/richmond-brighouse-station-new-bus-loop


Same thing is happening to the bus terminus in Steveston. The city just hates bus loops. What they settled on barely qualifies as an upgrade.
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/steveston-bus-exchange-translink-richmond-proposal

My time living in Richmond and working in Vancouver really sucked because I took the 404 to and from the station and I would have to basically walk a kilometer from the bus to the station. It's ridiculous. They could have put the stops closer

[Xelebes]

This thread is being closed to make way for the new thread. Please continue the conversation over there.