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View Poll Results: What should be given priority for LRT Stage 3?
Rural Rail 3 2.29%
Barrhaven 14 10.69%
South East 0 0%
Kanata 32 24.43%
Gatineau 19 14.50%
Orleans 0 0%
Bank St Subway 37 28.24%
Montreal Road 23 17.56%
Other 3 2.29%
Voters: 131. You may not vote on this poll

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  #541  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2023, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
One could make the opposite argument. Barrhaven already has a functional transit corridor. Does it need to be converted, causing years of detours, headaches and Billions of dollars for an unneeded capacity improvement? In Kanata, there is no corridor, so building something is better than the status quo, and if we're starting from zero, might as well go rail right off the bat.
I agree that the priority should be Kanata. Transit between Terry Fox and Eagleson is painfully slow on transit at present because buses must travel on-street.

The bigger problem is the lack of a true transit hub station in Kanata at March/Eagleson. Buses to Kanata North do not serve Eagleson when heading toward Kanata North, which makes connections from south Kanata difficult. The lack of such a hub is why taking transit within Kanata is so challenging.

Such a hub station can't really exist unless there is a dedicated transit corridor betwen Terry Fox and Eagleson. No matter whether the extension to Kanata is built as BRT or LRT, something is needed, and a transit hub station at March/Eagelson needs to be part of it.
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  #542  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2023, 4:56 PM
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Oh right, I forgot about global view too.
For that hill westward towards March Road, some cuts and fills can do.
I’m curious what the cross-sectional design will look like, though. Fitting 2 tracks there will definitely impact the clear zone and drainage of 417 westbound. If curb drainage is needed for the westbound lanes, I wonder if the current roadway is already steeper than 0.5% to fulfil the drainage requirement.
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  #543  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2023, 6:46 PM
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There are still a number of issues that need to be considered when extending Line 3 from Moodie to Terry Fox.
• Two track-sets needs to be squeezed between the LMSF and the 417.
The LMSF was apparently designed to allow for this. According to the Kanata Light Rail Transit Planning and Environmental Assessment Study (Moodie Drive to Hazeldean Road) – Recommendations:
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The Kanata LRT will start approximately 200 metres west of Moodie Drive at the junction where the tracks for the LMSF diverge from the main LRT tracks.
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
• There needs to be grade separation over the existing rail line and MUP.
The plan is to go over both with a singe structure. From the same EAS:
Quote:
West of this junction, the Kanata LRT runs parallel along the north side of Highway 417 at grade before crossing over the active Canadian National Railway Beachburg Subdivision rail corridor and National Capital Commission (NCC) multi-use pathway on a new structure.
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
• The tracks need to get over ‘The Ridge’ – which might require a lot of rock excavation to make the track grade reasonable.
Corkstown follows the lay of the land but there is lots of room to lengthen the approach and make the grade more reasonable, especially to the east, where it elevated to pass over the Beachburg Sub and MUP anyway. It wasn't mentioned as a concern in the EAS.

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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
• There is a complicated grade separation required at March, and a new pedestrian overpass from the park & ride lots south of the interchange to the new train station on the north. (It might turn out cheaper to keep the line elevated from ‘The Ridge’ and go over March; but then, can it drop fast enough to go under the MUP bridge. I don’t know.)
Also according to the EAS:
Quote:
As the LRT approaches March Road, it continues along the north side of the highway, curving slightly north to follow the westbound highway off-ramp and descending below existing grade into an open cut. The alignment then passes underneath the existing westbound highway ramps before entering March Station
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Just because there are already a couple of quite old structures already in place, extending the line to Terry Fox is not a ‘cakewalk’. I also imagine that those old structures may need to be refurbished so that a 30-year maintenance agreement can be met.
I said "between Eagleson and Terry Fox," in response to some suggesting it terminate at Eagleson. I agree that it isn't as easy between Moodie and Eagleson, but it is significantly easier than the drama between Algonquin and Hunt Club IMHO.
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  #544  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2023, 8:50 PM
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I said "between Eagleson and Terry Fox," in response to some suggesting it terminate at Eagleson. I agree that it isn't as easy between Moodie and Eagleson, but it is significantly easier than the drama between Algonquin and Hunt Club IMHO.
Don't forget that the grade separations north and south of Fallowfield Station will also be expensive to build.
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  #545  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2023, 10:04 PM
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Don't forget that the grade separations north and south of Fallowfield Station will also be expensive to build.
There is a very big chance that those grade separations will be built with or without LRT, so this is kind of a moot point.
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  #546  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2023, 11:09 PM
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Good Day.

I believe that VIA has a federally allocated fund to assist in grade separations, and that City had been hoping to have that key into funding that section of Phase 3 under full funding from other gov levels for Phase 3.
If it is built separately, that changes the funding scenarios for the grade separations here, whether for full separation of all the roads in this immediate area or only for selected ones, or how soon, or...
I also believe this fund entered into how the Ellwood diamond separation was designed, in its present limited form rather than future-proofed. So....maybe not so moot, but impactful on how,when,who,what,where....
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  #547  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 1:24 AM
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There is a very big chance that those grade separations will be built with or without LRT, so this is kind of a moot point.
Agreed!

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Originally Posted by PHrenetic View Post
Good Day.

I believe that VIA has a federally allocated fund to assist in grade separations, and that City had been hoping to have that key into funding that section of Phase 3 under full funding from other gov levels for Phase 3.
If it is built separately, that changes the funding scenarios for the grade separations here, whether for full separation of all the roads in this immediate area or only for selected ones, or how soon, or...
I also believe this fund entered into how the Ellwood diamond separation was designed, in its present limited form rather than future-proofed. So....maybe not so moot, but impactful on how,when,who,what,where....
There is a lot of FUD spread here about the design of the Ellwood diamond. It was future-proofed in that it was designed so that it could be widened in the future, without the expense of building a double width bridge today.

Going back to the grade separations near Fallowfield station, part of why they are on hold is that it is cheaper to build them for the O-Train up front than it would be to build them for the Transitway and then modify them the O-Train in the near future. If that future isn’t so near that, it would probably be better to just bite the bullet and do it now.
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  #548  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 1:36 PM
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LRT Stage 3 is at risk. How can Ottawa get it back on the rails?
Local councillors say $6.5 billion expansion isn't gone for good, but it is a long way off

Elyse Skura · CBC News
Posted: Sep 23, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 6 hours ago




Building the final planned extension to Ottawa's troubled light-rail transit system is no longer an affordable option, at least for the next 25 years. That statement — one of many dire pronouncements from the city's recent update to transit's long-term financial plan — was sobering.

But experts and local representatives say it should not come as a surprise.

The Stage 3 plan involves extending light-rail transit infrastructure into some of Ottawa's fastest growing communities: Kanata, Stittsville and Barrhaven.

The overall cost is now pegged at a staggering $6.5 billion, including $4 billion for the east-west portion and $2.5 billion for the connection to Barrhaven, according to data released to transit commission chair Glen Gower.

That's more than the last publicly available estimates of $3.5 billion and $1.8 billion, respectively.

None will come from city coffers. From the very beginning, staff have said it must be completely financed by 50-50 contributions from the provincial and federal governments.
"It's so that it can be affordable for the city," explained Gower, who represents Stittsville. "And that's different than Stage 1 and Stage 2, where the city contributed just over a third of the budget."

Now eight years from the city's original planned opening date, there have been no financial commitments, and a warning from Premier Doug Ford that Ottawa won't see any money until it solves its train problems — which have seen derailments, delays and an overall lack of transparency combine to erode public confidence.

Transit experts say the expansion may be politically necessary, but it doesn't make financial sense.

At this point, the environmental assessment for the infrastructure project is done, with the corridor and station plans completed. But Gower and other councillors emphasize there's still ample time to persuade governments to sign on.

"The discussion is probably not going to start for at least another year or two," said Barrhaven East Coun. Wilson Lo, at which point the city might be dealing with a different government at Parliament Hill.

That will provide time for the city — and municipalities across the country — to sharpen their arguments, said Gower.

"I think we have a really good justification," he said. "Transit is essential to the economy … Stage 2 and Stage 3 is about opening up new land for housing."
Barrhaven was initially expected to be among the first Ottawa communities to have access to light-rail transit, but in 2006, the council under then-mayor Larry O'Brien, opted to cancel a $778-million contract for a southern extension, forcing the city to pay out $37 million to contractors Siemens-PCL/Dufferin.

"A lot of residents who bought in this community especially for the original O-Train, they still talk about it," said Lo. "They still talk about how this is the community that was supposed to get LRT first and now we're likely to never get it, or not get in their lifetime."

Asked if there might come a time when the city is forced to give up on Stage 3 completely, Gower said "I don't think so."

But some outside experts wonder if it's financially viable.

If Ottawa is completely reliant on other levels of government to pay for construction, then UK-based transit consultant Michael Schabas said "it sounds like it's probably not going to happen."

"Canadian cities have got the ability to raise taxes from property and from fares and they should produce a business case that shows that something's worth doing."

The recent financial update emphasized that operating Ottawa's light-rail service is much more costly than initially thought, with the annual cost for operating the Stage 3 expansion now pegged at $64.1 million.

Ridership will increase "only slightly," staff said, by 2.5 per cent or about $5 million a year.

Schabas, who under Canadian infrastructure consultancy CPCS has worked for Toronto's Metrolinx, said City of Ottawa staff must now grapple with their "multi-million dollar mistake" of buying "a fleet of Ferraris to take the kids to school" that they can never return to the dealer.

"Ottawa had a great bus system," he said. "They picked a system with drivers and infrequent trains, big, long, infrequent trains. And so they've actually probably made transit in Ottawa worse for all the money they spent."

It's "a bit late to do anything about that," he said, suggesting that he sees "no evidence" of a strong business case for expanding the LRT and urging OC Transpo to consider a properly researched and well-financed alternative.

Gower, Lo, and Barrhaven West Coun. David Hill all agree that bus rapid transit (BRT) service is enough "for now" —so long as it works.

"We don't want people who are out in the new developments like on The Ridge and in Quinn's Pointe who have to walk two kilometres to get to their first stop and then have a one-and-a-half hour commute to Carleton," said Hill.
"The short term for LRT Phase 3 is a couple of decades. Let's be clear. I think in the shorter term the need for reliable, safe transit is now. And I don't see why we can't have both."

Jacob Wasserman, a research project manager at the UCLA Institute of Transportation Studies, said providing affordable rapid transit to the suburbs is a challenge that's common to many U.S. and Canadian cities.

Buses can work, but you have to make the system align with light-rail standards.

"So, you have stations instead of just stops. You can pay your fare at the station instead of lining up as you get on the bus. You get priority at traffic lights or even crossing gates," he said.

The problem, he said, is that political pressure often forces compromises like removing segregation and crossings that "eat away and eat away" until a BRT looks almost exactly like ordinary bus service.

He and Hill said the difference in service also creates challenging optics.
"We have been investing significant development charge monies and tax revenues from Barrhaven into transit and we need to see some return on investment," said Hill.

Hill and Lo also suggested that decisions on bus routes have failed to keep up with the pace of Barrhaven's growth.

The city is now beginning to consider a new phase of "route optimization" aimed at finding efficiencies in the face of this year's $40 million operating deficit.

Finding ways to bolster the existing rapid transit network would not only help residents, said Lo, it would strengthen a future business case for LRT expansion.

It would also save money.

While bus rapid transit can only handle 9,000 passengers an hour, or half the capacity of light rail, Gower said it can be built quicker at 20 to 30 per cent of the cost.

Eventually, the councillors believe population changes will make the multi-billion dollar expansion the more viable option.

"We need rapid transit in our communities in Kanata, in Stittsville, there's so much growth happening," said Gower. "There is not an option where we don't invest in higher order transit."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-lrt-stage-3-at-risk-1.6975901
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  #549  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 5:26 PM
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Good grief! I complained at public meetings about what they were doing with the Trillium Line. The experts told us, was the line. These super long trains will meet demand. Now this. Totally predictable.

Quote:
Schabas, who under Canadian infrastructure consultancy CPCS has worked for Toronto's Metrolinx, said City of Ottawa staff must now grapple with their "multi-million dollar mistake" of buying "a fleet of Ferraris to take the kids to school" that they can never return to the dealer.

"Ottawa had a great bus system," he said. "They picked a system with drivers and infrequent trains, big, long, infrequent trains. And so they've actually probably made transit in Ottawa worse for all the money they spent."
So, we end up with infrequent service, and a rail line that cannot be extended, definitely not into Barrhaven. Barrhaven could have had rail service since 2010. It may have been only partially segregated but the main part of the corridor going towards downtown was fully grade separated where traffic was the worst, and segregation was sufficient to prevent traffic from stopping trains, something like in Calgary. It was far from perfect but it was affordable. Smaller more frequent trains on a less elaborate right of way, that was much closer to potential customers.

We can go back to BRT but how many additional transfers have we added and will overall travel times be acceptable to attract people to transit? If our ultimate plan is to have local buses take you to BRT and then to LRT for a relatively simple trip, our plan will fail. Two transfers will not get people on transit. We already have this in my neighbourhood and it is crap.
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  #550  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 5:34 PM
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Schabas is always a critic because that's how he gets business. Ottawa cheaped out. We didn't buy Ferraris to take the kids to school. We bought Ladas. Now we're surprised that they are breaking down and need an oil change every week.

Schabas trying to argue we overspent while arguing that we didn't buy driverless, high frequency systems is ridiculous. That would have costed more (not much, but still). I have serious doubts about any agency that pays this guy.

Yes, we should have built something like the REM. No, that would not have been cheaper.
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  #551  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 5:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Schabas is always a critic because that's how he gets business. Ottawa cheaped out. We didn't buy Ferraris to take the kids to school. We bought Ladas. Now we're surprised that they are breaking down and need an oil change every week.

Schabas trying to argue we overspent while arguing that we didn't buy driverless, high frequency systems is ridiculous. That would have costed more (not much, but still). I have serious doubts about any agency that pays this guy.

Yes, we should have built something like the REM. No, that would not have been cheaper.
He is referring to the Stadler Flirt trains which are designed for regional service. These are massive trains. I saw one last night at Greenboro station.
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  #552  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 5:45 PM
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Up until early September, frequency was by no means infrequent. Five minutes is very respectable, though the now 10 minutes on weekends is sub-par. And Ferrari? Seriously? Watson had it right we he called it a Chevy system.
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  #553  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 6:15 PM
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He is referring to the Stadler Flirt trains which are designed for regional service. These are massive trains. I saw one last night at Greenboro station.
Are you sure about that? The article is plainly about Stage 3 and it seems clear that he's talking about the Citadis Spirit.

I don't personally agree with the idea that the FLIRTs are "massive" trains because they're shorter and carry fewer passengers than the Citadis Spirit pairs that the Confederation Line uses. Their size is pretty unremarkable really.

But more importantly, if you are unironically suggesting that the "long" and "infrequent" trains on the Line 2 are responsible for making transit worse in Ottawa, then... I don't even know what to say to that. I can agree that the benefits of Stage 2 South may only be marginal compared to what was there before, but its ridership numbers certainly don't tell as cynical of a story as you're telling here.
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  #554  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 11:15 PM
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Are you sure about that? The article is plainly about Stage 3 and it seems clear that he's talking about the Citadis Spirit.

I don't personally agree with the idea that the FLIRTs are "massive" trains because they're shorter and carry fewer passengers than the Citadis Spirit pairs that the Confederation Line uses. Their size is pretty unremarkable really.

But more importantly, if you are unironically suggesting that the "long" and "infrequent" trains on the Line 2 are responsible for making transit worse in Ottawa, then... I don't even know what to say to that. I can agree that the benefits of Stage 2 South may only be marginal compared to what was there before, but its ridership numbers certainly don't tell as cynical of a story as you're telling here.
The overall story is about the future of Stage 3 but those comments relate to past decisions and refer to long infrequent trains that take kids to school. Line 2 has been mostly for students, and you can't claim that Line 1 is infrequent. So, my comments are not unreasonable.

Ridership on Line 2 could be a whole lot better if it actually served the neighbouring population better and at frequency that provided reliable transfers to local buses. I don't know why you consider this cynical. It is the truth of the situation.

Overall, rail has so far made transit worse as the article suggests. The average Ottawa resident agrees. It is a sad statement, but it is also true.
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  #555  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2023, 11:44 PM
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Overall, rail has so far made transit worse as the article suggests. The average Ottawa resident agrees. It is a sad statement, but it is also true.
Yes, because everything was just dandy before rail came along. I dream of the wonderful long lost days of waiting outside in minus 20 degree weather watching the bus convoy crawl along as my bus takes 20 minutes to traverse 3 downtown blocks to reach my stop. Tell us again how things would be so much better if the old 2006 plan went through with trains sharing lanes on Albert and Slater with the dozens of other buses.
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  #556  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2023, 1:19 AM
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Schabas is always a critic because that's how he gets business. Ottawa cheaped out. We didn't buy Ferraris to take the kids to school. We bought Ladas. Now we're surprised that they are breaking down and need an oil change every week.
We bought a Lada minivan, only to have half of our children die a premature, unexpected death.
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  #557  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2023, 1:43 AM
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We bought a Lada minivan, only to have half of our children die a premature, unexpected death.
Jokes aside I think it's important we get the right analogy. Ferrari is wrong but we have far from a cheap project per km. We have a very expensive grade separated network with a tram, a high end one, but a tram. It seems clear it was failing to move sufficient people and though it was improving before the pandemic it was far from certain it can handle a full return to transit.

Maybe better analogy is we bought a Ducatti to drive the kids to school. Cost as much as a cheap minivan which our spoiled wife wouldn't allow us but wouldn't shell out for the BMW X5 she wanted that would actually get there reliably. We need to make a change even if we need to sell the Ducatti at a loss and go with a Toyota SUV.
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  #558  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2023, 3:41 AM
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Yes, because everything was just dandy before rail came along. I dream of the wonderful long lost days of waiting outside in minus 20 degree weather watching the bus convoy crawl along as my bus takes 20 minutes to traverse 3 downtown blocks to reach my stop. Tell us again how things would be so much better if the old 2006 plan went through with trains sharing lanes on Albert and Slater with the dozens of other buses.
Isn't it obvious how things would be better? lrt's friend would have service to his door. I don't think he actually cares about anything else.
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  #559  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2023, 3:51 AM
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He is referring to the Stadler Flirt trains which are designed for regional service. These are massive trains. I saw one last night at Greenboro station.
No. Schabas was talking about the replacement of the Transitway and referring to already poor performance of the Confederation Line:

Quote:
Ottawa had a great bus system," he said. "They picked a system with drivers and infrequent trains, big, long, infrequent trains. And so they've actually probably made transit in Ottawa worse for all the money they spent."

Why exactly would Schabas be talking about Stadler Flirts in an article where he's being asked for commentary on Stage 3 of the Confederation Line?

You're so fixated on whinging incessantly that it's impacted your reading comprehension.
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  #560  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2023, 3:06 PM
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While the FLIRTs might look big, when empty, they are actually only slightly less than twice the size of the existing Lints, which, during periods, were running full with mostly Carleton students. Considering that the schools have pretty much completely gone back to in class learning, having a train with about double the capacity makes sense if you want to increase the number of students using the train and still have room for those going to/from places other than Carleton.

I don’t get how one can argue that we’re going to reach capacity of the Trilliam line within a decade yet see the trains are too big.
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