Ottawa Macdonald-Cartier International Airport (YOW/CYOW)

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by solo748

You're certain a 200-seat XLR is good for 9.5hours wheels up out of Rome mid afternoon on a hot, summer day to YOW?

Refer to what @RomanR27 said regarding range and equally hot NCE. A mid-afternoon FCO departure at peak heat time wouldn't be optimal for connections to PD for a hypothetical TS FCO-YOW flight. Around 1100 would be optimal.

FCO's at sea level and its parallel runways at 3,902 m long, at 40C, the XLR needs about 2,900 m to get off the ground at MTOW.

[Dominion301]

Given the current state of Cuba, WestJet/Sunwing are suspending all service to Cuba indefinitely.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/sunwing-cuba-indefinitely-cancelled-9.7225255

[Truenorth00]

I would think Milan is better for business travel and easier to reach (possibly with an LR from YOW). But I guess FCO is a big destination for TS.

TS could probably do well going daily to LGW from YOW too. I wonder how tough CDG or ORY would be as a destination with no network there and AF competing with widebodies. FCO seems like it would need a precious XLR. I think that's a stretch for YOW. I think TS could probably justify 3-4 LRs based at YOW doing LGW, CDG and MXP year round.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would think Milan is better for business travel and easier to reach (possibly with an LR from YOW). But I guess FCO is a big destination for TS.

TS could probably do well going daily to LGW from YOW too. I wonder how tough CDG or ORY would be as a destination with no network there and AF competing with widebodies. FCO seems like it would need a precious XLR. I think that's a stretch for YOW. I think TS could probably justify 3-4 LRs based at YOW doing LGW, CDG and MXP year round.

Do you think MXP would be more likely than something like BCN or LIS? I guess that would make sense given that more people of Italian decent vs. Iberian decent reside in Ottawa. Wish I knew the O&D with all these pairings.

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Given the current state of Cuba, WestJet/Sunwing are suspending all service to Cuba indefinitely.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/sunwing-cuba-indefinitely-cancelled-9.7225255

While they're still loaded for now, that will be 3x weekly frequencies lost on WS (2x VRA, 1x CCC). We'll see how/if they're reallocated. At this rate, probably will just be more CUN

Looks like LGW-YOW was canceled today (inbound from YYZ was also cancelled).

Tomorrow's AC889 (789) is full except one business seat. AC888 is full in both premium cabins.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Do you think MXP would be more likely than something like BCN or LIS? I guess that would make sense given that more people of Italian decent vs. Iberian decent reside in Ottawa. Wish I knew the O&D with all these pairings.

MXP or FCO are definitely more likely that BCN or LIS. Though frequency is probably debatable. How many routes can YOW fill 200 seats a day to?

London definitely. I'm not even sure Paris works without the onward network. Moreover, the LR is probably pushing it from Milan with winter winds.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

MXP or FCO are definitely more likely that BCN or LIS. Though frequency is probably debatable. How many routes can YOW fill 200 seats a day to?

London definitely. I'm not even sure Paris works without the onward network. Moreover, the LR is probably pushing it from Milan with winter winds.

TS also just signed an interline agreement with Iberia. Maybe Madrid would be on the table as well.

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 81

Today's cancellation count (so far): 1

[Richard Eade]

I have been disappointed with the link-up between Porter and Air Transat. Each time I look, the layover times between flights seem crazy.

A planned trip to Zagreb, for example: Air Transat is the ONLY airline I found that flies direct from ANYWHERE in North America to Zagreb. It flies between YYZ and ZAG every second day, and, apparently (according to Google’s AI) has load factors of 75%-80% on the A330-200. But to get to that flight from YOW, you have three choices: Westjet with a 1h35 minute layover (which seems tight); Porter with 11h21 layover; Porter and a 13h01 layover; or Westjet waiting 13h10 between flights.

Returning from ZAG, Google Flights recommends flying Westjet to YOW, after the TS arrival at YYZ at 17:20 – but that is after a 5h55 layover.

Flying Rio de Janeiro to YOW, TS lands in YYZ at 18:30. The choice of connections to YOW is: Porter after a 5h00 layover; or an overnight layover (12h45-22h45).

If that is how Porter is supporting Air Transat’s existing flights at YYZ, it is no wonder that TS is not keen to try anything in Ottawa that needs Porter to feed it.

[RomanR27]

I'm guessing you're looking at the outbound on a Saturday? There is a YOW-YYZ Porter flight at 16:00 but it doesn't run Saturday (or Wednesday), YYZ-ZAG seems to be Tue/Thu/Sat.

I checked Thu July 9-Fri July 17 and got the 1600 YYZ flight with a four hour layover in Pearson, and then returning a 2h55 minute connection at YYZ, getting back to YOW at 21:20. Both directions the YOW-YYZ leg is Porter.

I'd be worried if you're seeing WestJet as an option, this is an online travel agent cobbling two separate tickets together, which screws you if you misconnect in Toronto - Transat won't rebook you since from their perspective you no-showed for a direct flight.

[solo748]

Originally Posted by Zmonkey

Ottawa to Rome is very doable on the XLR, but would be one of the longest XLR flights in the world. That is likley just fantasy and for AC they would rather connect you in Toronto, Montreal or Frankfurt in the future over putting an XLR in Ottawa for that route.

200+ PAX and luggage on FCOYOW in peak summer midday temps is an absolute test for the XLR. Disagree on the very doable framing

Originally Posted by RomanR27

Transat is running NCE-YUL with a 1500 departure this summer on the 321LR. FCO-YOW is about 600km longer in great circle distance. Rome has a mean high about 3 degrees higher than Nice. The published range of the XLR is 1300km higher than the LR. If, in practice, the XLR can't handle an extra 600km in 3° higher temps over an LR, it's hard to see what the point of the aircraft is.

Do their LRs have the aux tanks?

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Refer to what @RomanR27 said regarding range and equally hot NCE. A mid-afternoon FCO departure at peak heat time wouldn't be optimal for connections to PD for a hypothetical TS FCO-YOW flight. Around 1100 would be optimal.
FCO's at sea level and its parallel runways at 3,902 m long, at 40C, the XLR needs about 2,900 m to get off the ground at MTOW.

XLR is not getting off ground at MTOW in muggy 40' temps. When you need max fuel and perfoamance restricions at take-off, the 321NEO/LR/XLR quickly runs out of open space after 210 PAX and their luggage are loaded

Regardless, moot as it's there's 0.00 chance either TS or AC send their XLRs to FCO in my opinion

[solo748]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I would think Milan is better for business travel and easier to reach (possibly with an LR from YOW). But I guess FCO is a big destination for TS.

TS could probably do well going daily to LGW from YOW too. I wonder how tough CDG or ORY would be as a destination with no network there and AF competing with widebodies. FCO seems like it would need a precious XLR. I think that's a stretch for YOW. I think TS could probably justify 3-4 LRs based at YOW doing LGW, CDG and MXP year round.

MXP is the business centre for Italy but there's no chance
Similar 0 chance anyone competes here w AF

The TS/IB tie-up might incentivize BCN or MAD at some point but I'd be happy if they even brought back LGW

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by RomanR27

I'm guessing you're looking at the outbound on a Saturday? There is a YOW-YYZ Porter flight at 16:00 but it doesn't run Saturday (or Wednesday), YYZ-ZAG seems to be Tue/Thu/Sat.

I checked Thu July 9-Fri July 17 and got the 1600 YYZ flight with a four hour layover in Pearson, and then returning a 2h55 minute connection at YYZ, getting back to YOW at 21:20. Both directions the YOW-YYZ leg is Porter.

I'd be worried if you're seeing WestJet as an option, this is an online travel agent cobbling two separate tickets together, which screws you if you misconnect in Toronto - Transat won't rebook you since from their perspective you no-showed for a direct flight.

Yes. Thanks RomanR27. They were looing to fly either Friday or Saturday. Ultimately, they chose AF. Even with the ~4h transfer at CDG, it took less time overall. And it wasn’t much more expensive for cost.

However, from what I have been reading, the EES could take them almost all of that ~4h layover in CDG. One of the big benefits of TS straight to ZAG is that EES lineups at ZAG are only about 0h30.

But they are returning from Dubrovnik, so they need to take a small plane to somewhere. If they were on TS, that would be back to ZAG. With AF, they took KLM to Amsterdam for a day of touring before the flight back through CDG.

I don’t know what TS A330-200 is like (although Google Flights says that the seat pitch is 32”), but I suspect that flying AF/KLM will be nicer flights than Westjet and TS.

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 91

Today's cancellation count (so far): 1

[AuxTown]

Have we had 100 departures yet post-pandemic?

[Truenorth00]

Is there data anywhere on average gauge size? I'm curious if the departure count is stagnant but gauge is going up.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Is there data anywhere on average gauge size? I'm curious if the departure count is stagnant but gauge is going up.

Gauge is definitely up significantly. I'd hazard a guess on average 20 seats/departure vs 2019. In 2019 at YOW AC were still flying a lot of 97 seat E90s, all of Europe was on 211 seaters vs up to 472/departure now, 50 seaters were still plentiful whereas now it's a mere 2x/day to IAD (and AC had just retired the last of the DH1s a few months prior). WS had 10-12 DH4s a day at YOW and PD was exclusively DH4s.

Then add in cabin densification on the AC 321s, WS 738s/7M8s & now in process the AC 320s, gauge is definitely up.

Originally Posted by AuxTown

Have we had 100 departures yet post-pandemic?

Not yet. 95 was the new high mark set in May. I think RomanR27 calculated that 96 or 97 will be the absolute max this summer if there's a max day with zero cancellations (barring a charter or extra section due to a weather cancellation the prior day). So 95 will probably get surpassed but it'll be just by a hair. 93 reach multiple times was the prior record to 95, which has thus far only be reached once, and 91 was the highest in summer 2025.

[RomanR27]

Yeah I don't think there are any hard stats but gauge being up was also mentioned by the YOW rep in that CBC interview posted recently.

At one point we were set to peak at 99 frequencies this summer but there have been some PD cuts, plus the TS YUL feeder not operating Fridays as originally planned.

As of today, AF is daily until 03SEP.

[Dominion301]

Today’s departure count: 93

Today's cancellation count (so far): 0

PD have an extra one-off to YYZ scheduled today. In addition to AF daily, AC to YVR are back up to 3x weekly on the 789 (days 136). On day 3, there's 3 widebody departures + TS to LGW through to about Labour Day.

[RomanR27]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Today’s departure count: 93

Today's cancellation count (so far): 0

PD have an extra one-off to YYZ scheduled today. In addition to AF daily, AC to YVR are back up to 3x weekly on the 789 (days 136). On day 3, there's 3 widebody departures + TS to LGW through to about Labour Day.

AC889 is 16/30 J and 19/21 PY today. AC888 is full in J and 15/21 in PY. They're on a 789 today.

FYI the TS flight doesn't run Wednesdays. Actually, Monday/Wednesday/Saturday will all have three widebody departures all summer as the AC YVR 789 days all intersect with days LHR operates, plus AF being daily. Monday sees the closest cluster of departures as LHR departs around 1900 whereas on Wed/Sat it's around 2100.

Towards the end of the month, PD will actually have five YYZ departures on Monday, and then five YYZ arrivals on Tuesday. I guess an aircraft rotates into YYZ for a day, maybe since the afternoon MCO flight on Monday is no longer running.