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  #1  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2009, 11:21 AM
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The Reasoning Behind The Prevalence of Basements

For some reason I feel kind of embarrassed for having to ask this question but I'll swallow my pride and go forth. Why is it that basements are more common in Canada and Northern parts of the U.S.A. than other areas?
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Old Posted Dec 27, 2009, 1:56 PM
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My guess is that in the Southwest the ground is too rocky and therefore digging a basement is too expensive to be practical. In other areas (South Jersey and along the coast for example), a shallow water table might be the reason.
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Old Posted Dec 28, 2009, 7:05 AM
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Deep foundations are needed in areas that freeze. Since all that effort is being made to dig that foundation anyway, might as well use it as a basement. In warmer areas this is not necessary, and basements are rather expensive to dig.

However, basements are starting to make a comeback here in the Bay Area, as many zoning limits on the height and size of buildings exclude underground levels.
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Old Posted Dec 28, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Smiley Person View Post
Deep foundations are needed in areas that freeze. Since all that effort is being made to dig that foundation anyway, might as well use it as a basement. In warmer areas this is not necessary, and basements are rather expensive to dig.
Thanks for the info smiley! I had heard something about foundations needing to be below the Frost Line but came here before looking into it. After researching a bit about foundations and frost lines I've found out the dangers of Frost Heaving and the subseuqent need to have the foundations below the frost line, which leads to the creation of basements or cellars.
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Old Posted Dec 28, 2009, 10:00 PM
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My city is built on solid rock, and areas that aren't rock are swamp. Neither of those factors has anything to do with it, its the cold weather that requires things to go so deep. Some houses here have basements almost entirely underground, with no windows.
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Old Posted Dec 28, 2009, 10:13 PM
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Yes the cold weather/foundation below the frost line makes much more sense than my idea.

My mistake
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Old Posted Dec 28, 2009, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by theWatusi View Post
Yes the cold weather/foundation below the frost line makes much more sense than my idea.

My mistake
water tables do play a roll
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Old Posted Dec 29, 2009, 2:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
My city is built on solid rock, and areas that aren't rock are swamp. Neither of those factors has anything to do with it, its the cold weather that requires things to go so deep. Some houses here have basements almost entirely underground, with no windows.
Vid is it somewhat uncommon for a basement not to have windows in the Thunder Bay area? In Wisconsin, where I'm from, almost every home has a full basement level with no windows unless its built on a hill where it might have one or two walls exposed on the lower elevation of the hill.

I wonder if that has to do with the soil conditions in Wisconsin being almost entirely clay/mud (which ironically enough was all scrapped off the rocks up by you and pushed down here by the glaciers, which is why you have very rocky soil) while its much rockier up by you? I would imagine that people would be less likely to build a full basement straight into rock than they would to dig it into the soft yet stable clay that makes up most of Wisconsin.
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Old Posted Dec 29, 2009, 9:48 AM
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Almost all of them will have about a foot or so above ground and little windows along the ceiling, like this:


The window for the basement apartment in my building. The top of the window is likely level with the ceiling.

and in some cases, there will even be a depression in the ground and the window will be partially below the ground level (a lot of people plant flowers in the depression by the window). Up here, almost all basements are at least partially finished. Usually, the only unfinished part will be the room with the washer/dryer, furnace, water heater, air exchange and so on. Even if there are no windows, they will still probably finish the basement and just depend on artificial light.

Some houses have cellars below the basement, or as a separate area off to one side, sometimes under the house but in my experience they're usually under the porch or just under the lawn.

There are also some houses (older ones, usually) that didn't have basements originally, but later on (during the post-war boom typically, some cases during the 1920s) the house was raised and a basement was put in underneath it, but usually houses here have basements. Victory homes, simple houses built after the war that were intended to be temporary but aren't, usually don't have basements. My grandparents live in one, and they have little more than a cellar with a furnace in it. I'm not sure what the foundation of their house is like.

Usually if you don't build a basement you have to put in pilings and pour a concrete pad on top of that, this is what we use to support big box stores and other buildings. (Our city hall has a basement for utilities, but the extension they added to the front this summer is built on pilings and concrete instead.)

Anything built directly on rock is pretty uncommon. If you look at Sudbury in Google maps you'll notice large oblong gaps in the city. Those are rock outcrops. They don't build on those (usually, in the east end they blasted them away and built a cinema and some other retail stuff). Usually, even at the tops of hills, there is about 4 feet of soil above bedrock. You just have to get below about 4 feet or so to get to the point where frost can't reach and I think it is fine at that point. It might be closer to five, our basements are pretty deep. (The house I grew up in had almost 7 foot ceilings in the basement, but the ceiling of the basement went about 30 inches above ground.)

Then there is the case of the far north, where there is permafrost. Any building with a basement would shift in summer, so they're built on stilts and "float" around on the mud. Their utilities are usually overground. Water and sewer lines require heating coils so that they don't freeze. In Ontario that is only common in far northern aboriginal communities. In Nunavut, almost every building is built that way. (The "highrises" in Iqaluit are anchored on solid rock.)

--

I tried to find a photo to explain the "depression window" but I can't find it. There is basically a little rectangular area cut out of the ground by the window, it is lined with metal, and the window opens onto that like a light well to light up the basement. Here are some other photos though: (I went through 2 years worth.)

A house where the basement is finished and half above ground (that is, barely a basement at all.) I grew up in a house like this. Only the laundry room is unfinished. (Concrete floor, beams exposted and so on.)

A basement completely underground, no windows. My brother lives in a place like this, the basement is unfinished, used for utilities and storage (and "jamming").

This building has a basement with a tiny window above ground (near the back of the building, on the right side of the photo), to show how small these windows can be. Any lower and it would have the depression/light well thingy. The top of the window is very likely flush with the ceiling. (The ceiling might even raise up a bit by the window so that the light can reach down, the opposite of the light well thing.) (explanation of that van.)

Last edited by vid; Dec 29, 2009 at 10:29 AM.
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Old Posted Dec 30, 2009, 2:43 AM
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The first floors of pretty much every house anywhere will be raised above grade level, with most exceptions occuring in urban areas where 'grade' can be disputed. The addition of windows to the space between first floor and grade should normally be limited to flooding concerns and price.

Nowhereman, I don't know what you mean when you say homes in Wisconsin don't have basement windows; most houses new or old in Milwaukee have small windows like vid described above. I lived in an old house on the West Side and always had to pump water out of the basement if it rained really hard because the frames were deteriorated and letting water in.
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Old Posted Jan 5, 2010, 12:09 AM
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houses that actually have basements in the south and midwest are used for tornado protection and typically dont have any windows.

but most tract homes in rural/suburban areas, at least that i have experienced, are just poured slab on grade.
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Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 12:17 AM
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Basements are awesome. You don't have to use the AC in the summer to cool them. (assuming you finish it and its not just bare concrete). The rowhome in Philly i grew up in only had a 6ft basement that was used primarily for personal storage and as a coal cellar when it was built in the thirties. My rowhome now has a finished 7 1/2 ft basement adds a whole new living space to the home. Its an added bonus to buyers when you want to sell your home that the basement is finished. I might be wrong but I don't think that the basement counts when they describe sq footage of living space.
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Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by kilbride102 View Post
I might be wrong but I don't think that the basement counts when they describe sq footage of living space.
(at least in Pa) square footage only includes conditioned (heated) living space

So if the basement is finished and has heat, then it's included.
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Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by theWatusi View Post
(at least in Pa) square footage only includes conditioned (heated) living space

So if the basement is finished and has heat, then it's included.
Who runs a heating system through a basement? That would seem a bit counter-productive to me.
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Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 6:24 PM
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Who runs a heating system through a basement? That would seem a bit counter-productive to me.
because the temperature in the basement would be in the 40s/50s during the colder months. for most people, that's too cold for a comfortable room temperature. anyone that plans on using their basement as habitable living space in chicago adds a heating system, or more typically, adds onto to the existing home heating system.

i grew up in a typical chicago bungalow and when my dad finished our basement into a family room, bathroom, and spare bedroom, he had to remove all of the insulation on the heating pipes that were exposed in the basement so that the rooms would be heated properly, even then, it wasn't a perfect solution and we frequently used space heaters down there during the coldest months. before our basement was renovated, it was always very chilly down their during winter.



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houses that actually have basements in the south and midwest are used for tornado protection and typically dont have any windows.
as has been mentioned several times in this thread, houses in the midwest have basements because the foundations of any structure need to get below the frost line, and the general thinking is that if you're gonna excavate all of that earth anyway, you might as well make a basement out of it. tornado protection is merely a secondary benefit. there's also housing market forces at work, in that people looking for homes in chicago expect a house to have a basement, so builders continue to build houses with basements.

i don't know what part of the midwest you're from, but every house basement that i've ever seen in in chicago has windows. windowless basements seem to very extremely rare/non-existent in chicago.


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but most tract homes in rural/suburban areas, at least that i have experienced, are just poured slab on grade.
not in chicagoland, the VAST majority of suburban tract housing built here still has basements included. again, part of this is because the market demands it.
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Old Posted Jan 6, 2010, 6:49 PM
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Originally Posted by theWatusi View Post
(at least in Pa) square footage only includes conditioned (heated) living space

So if the basement is finished and has heat, then it's included.
In both Alberta and Ontario basements even if finished, heated, and with a walk out (if built on a hill) are not counted in the square footage.

--------

Is this what you mean by 'depression window' vid? A window well?

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Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 1:55 AM
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i don't know what part of the midwest you're from, but every house basement that i've ever seen in in chicago has windows. windowless basements seem to very extremely rare/non-existent in chicago.



not in chicagoland, the VAST majority of suburban tract housing built here still has basements included. again, part of this is because the market demands it.
i grew up all over arkanasas, tennessee, missouri, etc. basements are pretty rare and the frost line isn't very deep here at all. so if someone does opt for a basement, its usually because of storm protection. as for tract housing, yea it's still all sog

as an example, i searched all available homes for sale in a random west TN town.. and then i filtered houses with basements. 30 out of 565 houses have basements, the rest do not.

i dont know why you jumped to chicago when i said the south/midwest
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  #18  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 5:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby View Post
Is this what you mean by 'depression window' vid? A window well?

Yes, that is exactly it.

Basements here are heated with central heating/cooling vents in the ceiling, and electric baseboard heaters on the floor to supplement that.
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Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 7:39 AM
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i dont know why you jumped to chicago when i said the south/midwest
Because the Midwest is an enormous area of land of which Chicago is a part.
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Old Posted Jan 7, 2010, 3:01 PM
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i dont know why you jumped to chicago when i said the south/midwest
because your observations regarding basements and the midwest were inaccurate for the most part. basements may indeed be rare, windowless, and primarily used as tornado shelters in tennessee, but tennessee is not a part of the midwest. in the midwest, basements are commonplace, typically have windows, and are primarily dug to ensure that foundations get below the frost line.
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