Chief William Commanda Bridge (Prince of Wales Bridge) | Closed for Winter

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

The point where the northbound rail line meets Taché is about 700m from the Governbunkers of Hull; depending on the exact route of a surface spur (let alone a tunnel), it could terminate at the Governbunkers themselves or across the street, or some other place that is closer to a Governbunker entrance than the up to 200m that existing O-train stations expect the worst-treated bus transfer passengers to walk.



You're right. If only there was already a bridge of any kind at that location; a rail bridge would be even better.

From the existing Bayview to a notional Hull station is about 2000m of track, which is on a par with the distance on the Montreal metro between Berri-UQAM and Jean-Drapeau, but without the nuisance of having to dig a tunnel under the river.



There are zero metres between Bayview Station and Bayview Station, and a spur to downtown Hull would put LRT immediately adjacent to the big civil servant bus loop at Terrasses, which is also, by volume, effectively a RapiBus station.



Perhaps a "better" one is necessary.

That doesn't mean a somehow imperfect one should be thrown out.



Shorter and more direct for whom?

And until that shorter or more direct route (for whom) is built, a rail link that can't get tied up by pinch-point mixed-traffic bridges in the core would share the same advantages that the tunnel under downtown now does.

The mere existence of a piece of dilapidated infrastructure is not a reason to invest a huge amount of money to try to restore it to former glory. If you see a dilapidated motel on the side of Highway 7 does not mean the Government should spend big bucks to open a hotel. The bridge was built in 1880 when the main CP station was on the flats. It survived the NCC rail purge because it was out of the way. It is not well located for Ottawa-Gatineau commuter patterns.

You are talking as if Terrasses de la Chaudière is downtown Hull. It is one complex at the Western edge of downtown Hull. Most buildings/hotels/museums/etc are further east. Building/massively reconstructing a 3ish km rail spur primarily to benefit the a small subset of the employees of one building is not particularly practical.

But even if we assume Terrasses de la Chaudière is the only important destination in Hull, getting from Bayview station to Terrasses de la Chaudière currently takes about 10 minutes in rush hour on the 105. If the Zibi Spur were built, running a DMU 2.5ish km on a single track spur (roughly the distance from the arboretum to Bayview) is not going to be much faster than that. If 2 km spur were built to Taché, requiring a 700m walk or bus/lrt ride it wouldn't be faster at all, and for every other destination in downtown Hull it gets worse than that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

A key source of ridership missing from this list is Carleton students. Plenty of them live in Gatineau and would go out of their way to transfer to the Trillium Line, even if its Gatineau terminal was in a less than ideal place.

.

I have never really had that impression. Obviously there are some Carleton students who live in Gatineau but it's a very small number - and they're probably not necessarily concentrated in the catchment area that an extended Trillium line would have on the Quebec side. I suppose that in the build-it-and-they-will-come perspective if the line were extended to Gatineau more Carleton students would end up living in Gatineau due to cheaper rents (while keeping their Ontario health cards, income tax filings and such - technically illegal I believe, but anyway).

But for now, well let's just say I've been living in Gatineau for over 20 years and the number of students who go to Carleton that I've known (via friends, family, neighbours and work colleagues) is just about zero. Not saying there are none, just that it's very rare. One of my kids is approaching university age, and among their extended social network (including kids who are already going to university), it's as if Carleton did not exist. You never hear about it.

Same goes for UQO students from Ottawa - very, very few students go there from Ottawa, and if you narrow it down to the Trillium line's catchment area, that's an even smaller number.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suppose that in the build-it-and-they-will-come perspective if the line were extended to Gatineau more Carleton students would end up living in Gatineau due to cheaper rents (while keeping their Ontario health cards, income tax filings and such - technically illegal I believe, but anyway).

How would it be illegal? They could claim their permanent residence as their parent's place in Ontario (or wherever they are from).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You are talking as if Terrasses de la Chaudière is downtown Hull. It is one complex at the Western edge of downtown Hull.

A station where I suggest (Terrasses) would be just as close to the rest of downtown Hull's offices, restaurants, and museums, as any LRT station in central Ottawa is.

But even if we assume Terrasses de la Chaudière is the only important destination in Hull, getting from Bayview station to Terrasses de la Chaudière currently takes about 10 minutes in rush hour on the 105. If the Zibi Spur were built, running a DMU 2.5ish km on a single track spur (roughly the distance from the arboretum to Bayview) is not going to be much faster than that.

What you'd lack in speed advantage, you'd make up for in other ways, as we are so often told in the urban east end of Ottawa. And the "single track" issue can be mitigated with sidings, esp. on the island.

If 2 km spur were built to Taché, requiring a 700m walk or bus/lrt ride it wouldn't be faster at all, and for every other destination in downtown Hull it gets worse than that.

That is an exceptionally good counterargument to the imaginary person, who is not participating in this thread, who suggests terminating at Taché.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

How would it be illegal? They could claim their permanent residence as their parent's place in Ontario (or wherever they are from).

You are supposed to change over your "stuff" (provincially-issued cards, etc.) something like 60 or 90 days after switching provinces.

But you may be right that students may be considered an exception to this rule, as their residence in the province where they study is seen as temporary, and their permanent address is at their parents'.

[rocketphish]

There's little sense behind the latest plan for the Prince of Wales Bridge
The problem with using it as a rail link is not congestion at Bayview Station. The issue is who takes the lead on interprovincial rail, and who pays.

Randall Denley
Updated: October 1, 2019

There is something very peculiar about the sudden plan to convert the Prince of Wales Bridge from a potential interprovincial rail connection to a bicycle and pedestrian crossing. It’s a decision that doesn’t seem to make sense and the public rationale for it has been slim at best.

First, Ottawa Centre Liberal candidate Catherine McKenna announced a plan to improve the bridge so that cyclists and pedestrians could use it. Nothing wrong with that, although the free-spending Liberals want the city and the province to pay part of the estimated $10 million cost of the bicycle bridge. McKenna did not rule out future light rail, but wants the bridge fixed up now for other users.

Then, a few days later, Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson and Gatineau Mayor Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin showed up at the bridge to say they liked the cycling and pedestrian idea. Then Watson surprised his council colleagues by saying that long-standing plans to use the bridge as a transit connection to Gatineau were dead.

This was news to transit commission chair Coun. Allan Hubley, whose committee is in charge of OC Transpo. It seems the mayor did not think to share this pertinent news with him.

In explanation, the mayor said, “Our staff came back and said that even though many years ago this (bridge) was bought by a previous council with the intention of running the O-Train, they now recognize it would be far too congested to have so many people drop off at one of the busiest intersections in our LRT system.”

Well, not quite. Staff have not ruled out using the bridge and the issue is not congestion at Bayview Station. The questions to be answered are who takes the lead on interprovincial rail, and who pays. Ottawa had originally envisioned sending its O-Train into Gatineau to serve Ottawa and Gatineau commuters, with Quebec taxpayers sharing the cost.

OC Transpo planning director Pat Scrimgeour points out that directing a lot of Quebec commuters to Bayview would use up 20 per cent of Ottawa’s light rail capacity. That would place a burden on the city’s new LRT system and give Quebecers the benefit of using it without contributing to the cost of building it.

Now that it has changed its focus from Bayview, Gatineau is looking at an electric tram line that would come into Ottawa and drop Quebec commuters near the city’s underground rail stations. This would largely replace Gatineau buses, but it’s a pretty significant policy issue that would have to go to city council, Scrimgeour says.

That’s exactly what Coun. Mathieu Fleury wants to see. He has arranged for Gatineau staff to brief Ottawa’s transportation committee in November.

The idea of using Prince of Wales to connect Ottawa and Gatineau clearly still has merit. The bridge has two unique advantages. Although it requires extensive upgrading, it already exists, which is huge in an area that hasn’t been able to agree on a new bridge location in decades. Bayview Station is also the connection point with the city’s north-south line, enabling commuters to go east, west or south. It can be expanded if necessary.

It’s madness for the federal government, the Quebec and Ontario governments and the Ottawa and Gatineau civic governments to collectively spend billions of dollars on rail transit without any real plan to connect workers in the two provinces. And yet, that’s where we are now.

Throughout all of this, the role of the Liberal government has remained rather murky. The Liberals say they are climate-change champions. Electrified rail can help reduce emissions. Where is their plan for a rational interprovincial transit system for the capital? Instead, their leading local candidate is talking about picking up part of the tab for a bike and pedestrian bridge. It’s embarrassing.

Even worse, our two local mayors are playing along with the Liberals. The mayors should be working together on an interprovincial plan that makes sense and pressuring political parties to get behind it, not getting distracted by a bicycle bridge.

Randall Denley is an Ottawa political commentator and author, and former Ontario PC candidate. Learn about his new book Spiked at randalldenley.com. Contact him at randalldenley1@gmail.com

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/co...f-wales-bridge

[Allandale25]

After this news...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...idge-1.5296186

...Moose is doing this:

https://www.letsgomoose.ca/moose-con...nadas-capital/

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

After this news...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...idge-1.5296186

...Moose is doing this:

https://www.letsgomoose.ca/moose-con...nadas-capital/

Well it's hardly surprising that they would, although more surprising that they're still around...

Some notable things (I think):

If and when the city actually decides to go through with turning the bridge into a pedestrian crossing "forever", they'll have to put that intention in their three year plan for at least a full year before the discontinuance process can be started.

Technically, the 2012 order by the CTA was not overturned by cabinet, though to me that seems like just an oversight.


It'll be interesting to see if

12.4 Order the cities of Ottawa and Gatineau to provide the Agency with copies of the transit
analyses which the two mayors referred to in their public statements to media on 24 September
2019, the dates that their studies were produced, the professional or technical credentials of the
analysts, and copies of the terms of reference under which they were prepared.

gets carried out before this case is thrown out because I'd like to see those studies too.


Seeing as they apparently intend to discontinue the bridge, this is the perfect time for MOOSE to swoop in and buy the relevant infrastructure... assuming they had the money.
It's not like the city can just sell them the bridge and leave it disconnected either, since leaving it disconnected would be either considered discontinuance, or just acting in bad faith assuming MOOSE was actually in a position to offer rail service and contribute financially to restoring the link..

Also:

VIA Rail noted that they would abide by the Act and negotiate with Moose Consortium, should the
restoration of the Ottawa River Line lead Moose Consortium to apply to operate on VIA Rail infrastructure.

And finally, the city could have avoided this if they just promised to cantilever a pedestrian walkway off the side without disturbing the tracks....

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Seeing as they apparently intend to discontinue the bridge, this is the perfect time for MOOSE to swoop in and buy the relevant infrastructure... assuming they had the money.

Clearly they don't.

[rocketphish]

Hobin Architecture celebrates 40 years of designing urban fabric of Ottawa

By: Caroline Phillips, OBJ
Published: May 10, 2019 12:00pm EDT

Ottawa’s real estate and development business leaders turned out by the truck load Thursday to help Hobin Architecture celebrate its 40th anniversary.

The party was held at one of the firm's recent redesign projects, The Innovation Centre at Bayview Yards, a former industrial building-turned-innovation centre located just west of downtown Ottawa.

Evidence of the firm’s commitment to the community was seen through its decision to have the shindig catered by The Ottawa Mission’s food services training program, which gives people a second chance to turn their lives around by teaching them the skills to work in a commercial kitchen. Hobin Architecture partner Gord Lorimer is on the board of The Mission, which was represented at the party by its executive director, Peter Tilley, and manager of food services, Chef Ric Allen-Watson.

There was live music playing throughout the night, featuring the popular local band The PepTides.

Firm founder Barry Hobin delivered a speech that was thoughtful and contemplative as he took to the stage to formally welcome guests and thank some key people — including his wife, Nancy Hobin. There were moments of levity, too, like when he referenced that Seinfeld episode when George Constanza famously pretends to be an architect.

Many of Hobin’s friends attended, from talented graphic designer Dave O’Malley, with whom he shared downtown office space when they were both starting off, to his pastor, Parkdale United Church Rev. Anthony Bailey.

Hobin stressed the five principles — design, service to clients, community, collaboration, and office culture — that are key to the success of the award-winning firm. Hobin Architecture has a team of 39 and is led by five partners: Hobin, Gord Lorimer, Sandy Davis, Wendy Brawley and Doug Brooks.

Some of the firm’s current projects include the Chaudière Island redevelopment into a sustainable mixed-use waterfront community, named Zibi, as well as the redevelopment in Old Ottawa East of the former Oblates land to create the new Greystone Village. It was involved with the redevelopment of both Lansdowne Park in the Glebe and of Westboro Station, which involved an entire block of Westboro Village. It's a shame for Hobin Architecture that the RendezVous partnership group fell apart because the firm was part of its proposed multi-billion-dollar redevelopment of LeBreton Flats.

Hobin Architecture has worked with a number of non-profit organizations, including Cornerstone Housing for Women, Multifaith Housing, the Salvation Army, the Boys and Girls Club of Ottawa, and multiple seniors' and long-term care homes.

Ottawa is a small community — and that’s a good thing, according to Hobin. “People know who you are. When you do the right thing, people remember. That brings another level of accountability to how you live, how you practice.”

He made a convincing argument as to why architecture is a lot like — of all things — football. “What do these two things have in common? Teamwork,” said Hobin, who played for the Ravens football team back when he was an architect student at Carleton University. Prominent businessman John Ruddy from Trinity Developments was among his teammates.

“Teamwork is so essential in recognizing that within your team someone has talents that you don’t have."

When it comes to being a good designer, said Hobin, it’s important to communicate fluently in a language that is comprehensive to the client, rather than in “architecture language”, which can be complex and confusing. “If you don’t learn that it’s not about you — it’s about how you interact — you’re going to be in trouble.”

Hobin spoke about the relationship between an architect and a client as being one that's built on faith and trust. “They have to take a risk and spend money on something they haven’t seen, yet," he pointed out.

The business leader became visibly moved when he spoke about the staff, and the level of care and compassion that the people in his office show to each other when hardship or tragedy strikes. “We don’t take those people for granted,” said Hobin. “Our obligation as a firm to these individuals is really, really important.”

Hobin has maintained a strong connection with his alma mater since graduating as one of Carleton's first architect students. Many of the stronger students from Azrieli School of Architecture and Urbanism have gone on to work for his firm. "That has worked to the school's benefit and to the city's benefit," Ben Gianni, an architecture and urbanism professor at Carleton University, told OBJ.social.

Hobin Architecture has really focused on creating the urban fabric of Ottawa, said Gianni. “What I respect about them the most is their persistent commitment to filling in the blank spaces of Ottawa and transforming it from a city of gaps and isolated buildings into a much more cohesive and urban experience."

Attendees included Mayor Jim Watson, and many business people and individuals with whom the firm has worked over the years, from Morley Hoppner Group's Brian Morley and Ken Hoppner — who were the design builder on Bayview Yards — to Shelley True from strategic marketing and design firm TRUEdotDESIGN to John MacDougall from Uniform Developments, among others.

— caroline@obj.ca

https://obj.ca/article/hobin-archite...-fabric-ottawa

[Allandale25]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Well it's hardly surprising that they would, although more surprising that they're still around...

Some notable things (I think):

If and when the city actually decides to go through with turning the bridge into a pedestrian crossing "forever", they'll have to put that intention in their three year plan for at least a full year before the discontinuance process can be started.

Technically, the 2012 order by the CTA was not overturned by cabinet, though to me that seems like just an oversight.


It'll be interesting to see if


gets carried out before this case is thrown out because I'd like to see those studies too.


Seeing as they apparently intend to discontinue the bridge, this is the perfect time for MOOSE to swoop in and buy the relevant infrastructure... assuming they had the money.
It's not like the city can just sell them the bridge and leave it disconnected either, since leaving it disconnected would be either considered discontinuance, or just acting in bad faith assuming MOOSE was actually in a position to offer rail service and contribute financially to restoring the link..

Also:



And finally, the city could have avoided this if they just promised to cantilever a pedestrian walkway off the side without disturbing the tracks....

Where are you seeing that part about VIA Rail? Is it in the Moose letter?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Allandale25

Where are you seeing that part about VIA Rail? Is it in the Moose letter?

It's in the document that explains the reasoning behind the cabinet dismissal of the order earlier this year.

[Allandale25]

^ Found it, thanks.

[Gat-Train]

In a perfect world, the city of Ottawa discontinues the railway on the POW, has to put it up for auction. MOOSE then has angel investors swoop in and give them $1 billion or so. MOOSE buys the bridge and pays to double or even better triple-track the Trilllium corridor. Now we have commuter rail connecting the entire NCR. Maybe the feds even pitch in a little money to make it happen.

Sadly, I doubt this will come to be.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

In a perfect world, the city of Ottawa discontinues the railway on the POW, has to put it up for auction. MOOSE then has angel investors swoop in and give them $1 billion or so. MOOSE buys the bridge and pays to double or even better triple-track the Trilllium corridor. Now we have commuter rail connecting the entire NCR. Maybe the feds even pitch in a little money to make it happen.

Sadly, I doubt this will come to be.

The city doesn't have to put it up for auction. They have to either:

• Negotiate a reasonable offer for purchase (the CTA will calculate a fair price if asked), or
• Change their mind and not discontinue the railway.

If no one provides a reasonable offer within 6 months, they can discontinue the line (unless a municipal, provincial or federal government want it).

see: https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/proces...ine-operations

[Multi-modal]

At transportation commission City staff stated that the PoW bridge is still in the long-range plans for transit (to be confirmed by the TMP update):

The Prince of Wales Bridge is still a potential future transit connection to Gatineau. It would serve commuters who want to travel north/south, then west of downtown, on either side of the Ottawa River. The connection is shown in the City's TMP beyond the affordable network planned to 2031. Until such time as the Trillium Line is extended northerly, the PoW Bridge could be used in the interim for active transportation. In the ultimate plan, there would be yclcing and pedestrian facilities, as well as rail transit on the bridge.

STO is currently undertaking a Rapid Transit Study that includes a link to Ottawa's Confederation Line. For Gatineau commuters travelling to Ottawa, STO determined in their study that the Portage Bridge is a more suitable link between the two downtowns. The analysis was based on minimizing transfers and travel time for STO customers and allowing many to walk to their desitnations downtown. Further, if STO service were to connect at Bayview Station, our trains on the Confederation Line (as well as the Trillium Line) would need to ensure seats/space available for the 5,500 customers forecasted in the year 2031 that would be transferring from Gatineau during the peak hour. This would affect the capacity available for Ottawa residents travelling from the west and the south. STO's study is ongoing and City of Ottawa staff will continue to work with them on planning further interprovincial transit connections. STO staff are planning to present the results of their study after to Transportation Committee in spring 2020.

[Gat-Train]

Another idea for the future of the bridge:

The bridge is refurbished so trains can run on it again, along with cantilevered MUP. When the Trillium Line isn't running, freight trains can run between Ottawa and Gatineau, and non-local truck traffic through downtown can be restricted or outright banned. Eventually, the Trillium Line is double-tracked, with an extra bypass track for freight trains through the stations.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Another idea for the future of the bridge:

The bridge is refurbished so trains can run on it again, along with cantilevered MUP. When the Trillium Line isn't running, freight trains can run between Ottawa and Gatineau, and non-local truck traffic through downtown can be restricted or outright banned. Eventually, the Trillium Line is double-tracked, with an extra bypass track for freight trains through the stations.

There is no way this freight-train idea makes any economic sense to anyone who trucks anything to/from Ottawa/Gatineau to/from anywhere else.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by Gat-Train

Another idea for the future of the bridge:

The bridge is refurbished so trains can run on it again, along with cantilevered MUP. When the Trillium Line isn't running, freight trains can run between Ottawa and Gatineau, and non-local truck traffic through downtown can be restricted or outright banned. Eventually, the Trillium Line is double-tracked, with an extra bypass track for freight trains through the stations.

Hilariously outlandish idea. I really don't see a cargo port in Bayview's future.

[McC]

The economic trade off point between truck and train occurs somewhere between 500 and 1000 km, depending on the variables (e.g., fuel prices, cargo type, just-in-timeyness of the delivery requirement—that’s a technical term, by the way ). That’s why there are no intermodal yards in the Ottawa area: we’re within range of both the Montreal and Toronto area facilities.