Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

The pertinent issue is this:



There is so, so, SO much more underneath Philadelphia to be concerned about than there is under Seattle, possibly other than fault lines. Any figure less than $10 billion is ludicrous and less than $8 billion is shysty.

Seattle is a mix bag of soft earth , solid rock and water table pockets its no walk in the park. Those Tunnels are also built to withstand an 8.0 Earthquake. If you factor in the Extension up to Northgate its 6 miles of Underground tunnel through all sorts of rock. Philly is more of a solid rock similar to NYC with some soft areas near the River. 6 Billion max for the Philly Tunnel and should take no longer then 5 years to bore...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

The number sounded quite suspect to me also. I kept thinking "They don't think they're building in Philadelphia, MO right?"

The Second Avenue Subway's 2017 debut section is clocking in at, what, ~$4 billion? And that's for two miles? Of currently existing infrastructure?

You can't compare a NYC project to a Philly project , heck you can't even compare a NYC Project to a Jersey Project. The Costs in NYC are often 2-4x elsewhere except maybe Boston. The Roosevelt Boulevard Subway will be about 9 miles and still even with slight inflation will only cost 3.4 Billion. The SAS is 8.5 miles and will cost 17 Billion. Hence why I don't see the Tunnel in Philly costing all that much. All the Regional Rail Expansions in NJ-NYC-NY-CT will cost close to 15 Billion , while all the Electrified Septa Expansions will cost about 4 Billion....about 60 miles difference in added trackage. Philly is cheap to build in general compared to NYC and Northern NJ and CT....

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

You can't compare a NYC project to a Philly project , heck you can't even compare a NYC Project to a Jersey Project. The Costs in NYC are often 2-4x elsewhere except maybe Boston. The Roosevelt Boulevard Subway will be about 9 miles and still even with slight inflation will only cost 3.4 Billion. The SAS is 8.5 miles and will cost 17 Billion. Hence why I don't see the Tunnel in Philly costing all that much. All the Regional Rail Expansions in NJ-NYC-NY-CT will cost close to 15 Billion , while all the Electrified Septa Expansions will cost about 4 Billion....about 60 miles difference in added trackage. Philly is cheap to build in general compared to NYC and Northern NJ and CT....

Philadelphia is only roughly 15-25% cheaper on projects like this at most. This is especially true after the wage cuts that the NYC labor unions just took.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

You can't compare a NYC project to a Philly project , heck you can't even compare a NYC Project to a Jersey Project. The Costs in NYC are often 2-4x elsewhere except maybe Boston. The Roosevelt Boulevard Subway will be about 9 miles and still even with slight inflation will only cost 3.4 Billion. The SAS is 8.5 miles and will cost 17 Billion. Hence why I don't see the Tunnel in Philly costing all that much. All the Regional Rail Expansions in NJ-NYC-NY-CT will cost close to 15 Billion , while all the Electrified Septa Expansions will cost about 4 Billion....about 60 miles difference in added trackage. Philly is cheap to build in general compared to NYC and Northern NJ and CT....

Well, first of all which particular planned SEPTA expansions?

I used the SAS to illustrate a cost-to-build situation. Dollars are dollars wherever they're being spent. An eight mile new build heavy rail subway route under a major built-out city will probably cost at least the same as a ten mile new build high speed rail route under a major built-out city. Yes there can be cost difference between NYC and Philadelphia but even in standard building construction, thanks to local unions, the differences are often small.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

Well, first of all which particular planned SEPTA expansions?

I used the SAS to illustrate a cost-to-build situation. Dollars are dollars wherever they're being spent. An eight mile new build heavy rail subway route under a major built-out city will probably cost at least the same as a ten mile new build high speed rail route under a major built-out city. Yes there can be cost difference between NYC and Philadelphia but even in standard building construction, thanks to local unions, the differences are often small.

Yes But I said look at the Cost of the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway for 9 Miles its only 3.4 Billion , and runs under a built up area of Philly and will be bored.... You can milk a project more in NYC then Philly hence the cost difference. Aside from the 3 Billion in New Tunnels and Station. The Old NEC and Keystone corridor will receive 4-5 Billion upgrade. Alot of old bridges need to be replaced , new wires , and some viaducts widened and rebuilt along with new substations and all stations high level platformed. And 2-3 New Tracks put in for HSR...

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

I doubt it will go above 6 Billion , this tunnel will be bored and not cut and cover and will be deep avoiding all the messy things. The recent Seattle Link Tunnel Extension only cost 1.6 Billion further Extensions will cost 2-3 Billion for a few miles....so I don't think Amtrak will be any higher then 6 Billion. The Big Dig also had numerous exits and entrances , and was swallow....compared to this tunnel.

Seattle's got hills, and that's where the tunnels are.

South of Center City, that tunnel's a straight shot through marshland that's already been built over, with extremely deep bedrock. Bad recipe for boring. Good one for cost overruns at scale.

There's also a much, much cheaper way of achieving the Airport connection, if you screw the Market East portion...the Chester Branch. Zoo doesn't cost as much time as Amtrak would have you think, and more incremental improvements could give it at least freeway speed.

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Yes But I said look at the Cost of the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway for 9 Miles its only 3.4 Billion , and runs under a built up area of Philly and will be bored.... You can milk a project more in NYC then Philly hence the cost difference. Aside from the 3 Billion in New Tunnels and Station. The Old NEC and Keystone corridor will receive 4-5 Billion upgrade. Alot of old bridges need to be replaced , new wires , and some viaducts widened and rebuilt along with new substations and all stations high level platformed. And 2-3 New Tracks put in for HSR...

Geology on the Boulevard is better for boring. Frankly, the nature of the Boulevard (i.e. its really wide median) makes it a perfect project for cut-and-cover. There's no new easement that needs to be created, and it's already in the hills.

[josef]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Geology on the Boulevard is better for boring. Frankly, the nature of the Boulevard (i.e. its really wide median) makes it a perfect project for cut-and-cover. There's no new easement that needs to be created, and it's already in the hills.

I'm pretty unfamiliar with this kind of engineering; is hilly terrain better to bore through for some reason?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by josef

I'm pretty unfamiliar with this kind of engineering; is hilly terrain better to bore through for some reason?

Yep--tunnel-boring machines are built to bore through bedrock--hard bedrock, like schist and gneiss and whatever else you'll find at the base of mountains. What are (most) hills but escarpments of bedrock with trees on top?

What they are not built for is drilling through sand. Which is what they would have to do to link the Airport and Market East together.

[josef]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Yep--tunnel-boring machines are built to bore through bedrock--hard bedrock, like schist and gneiss and whatever else you'll find at the base of mountains. What are (most) hills but escarpments of bedrock with trees on top?

What they are not built for is drilling through sand. Which is what they would have to do to link the Airport and Market East together.

Ahhhh ok, gotcha. Makes sense.

[Nexis4Jersey]

There not going to cut and cover the boulevard , its too slow compared to a faster boring method...

[Nexis4Jersey]

These days there are techniques for boring in Wet or marshy ground and Japan and China use them every year.....without incident....so them same can be done with Philly,

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

These days there are techniques for boring in Wet or marshy ground and Japan and China use them every year.....without incident....so them same can be done with Philly,

That those techniques exist is not being questioned.

What their cost is, is.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

That those techniques exist is not being questioned.

What their cost is, is.

I honestly don't care about the costs.....its shocking to see people hammer Amtrak over the costs yet let the billions in cost overruns in Bridge , highway and road projects slide. And what bothers me the most is the whining coming from parts of the Rail community....at least from Philly which general whines about everything anyway....and Boston whining about Amtraks feeder plans. You don't see NYC-NJ , Baltimore or DC Rail communities whining....they want more stacked on...

[josef]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

I honestly don't care about the costs.....its shocking to see people hammer Amtrak over the costs yet let the billions in cost overruns in Bridge , highway and road projects slide. And what bothers me the most is the whining coming from parts of the Rail community....at least from Philly which general whines about everything anyway....and Boston whining about Amtraks feeder plans. You don't see NYC-NJ , Baltimore or DC Rail communities whining....they want more stacked on...

Didn't Christie whine so much that he single-handedly cancel ARC?

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by josef

Didn't Christie whine so much that he single-handedly cancel ARC?

Christie is a politician not someone in the Rail Community...

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

There not going to cut and cover the boulevard , its too slow compared to a faster boring method...

Huh? The median on Roosevelt is so damn wide they could dig a whole new river there.

They could go even cheaper by cutting and NOT covering... rail in a trench with caps over the stations to shelter the platforms.

I'm not terribly familiar with Philly, but is there seriously a need for 12 lanes of traffic?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

There not going to cut and cover the boulevard , its too slow compared to a faster boring method...

You are seriously overestimating how fast a TBM goes in a day...There's a reason it's taking 20 years for Switzerland to bore a 16-mile tunnel.

[josef]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Christie is a politician not someone in the Rail Community...

No I know, but I don't think there're people who like transit enough to be considered be in the "rail community" who are straight up like "oh no philly shouldn't even think about high speed rail". Philly.com article comments aside (most of those people are beyond hate-filled trollscum), I think we're just having a thoughtful debate about the various aspects of the project.

I guess I just personally don't think it's cool to say we're whining about the project; hammersklavier is a major, huge transpo guy and so he's trying to be practical. The amount of thoughtful analysis he's put into stuff on his own blog is staggering. I think other people who worryingly cite the cost as looking too low are just trying to hedge their bets against disappointment. I'm sure you'd agree that the entire country is in this weird mode where we think any given number for infrastructure is too high, so there's some desire to imagine how much more it might cost than planned so that one day when they announce it, it's not a huge shock. Or something like that. But I think overall people on here are pretty positive about all kinds of developments...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by josef

No I know, but I don't think there're people who like transit enough to be considered be in the "rail community" who are straight up like "oh no philly shouldn't even think about high speed rail". Philly.com article comments aside (most of those people are beyond hate-filled trollscum), I think we're just having a thoughtful debate about the various aspects of the project.

I guess I just personally don't think it's cool to say we're whining about the project; hammersklavier is a major, huge transpo guy and so he's trying to be practical. The amount of thoughtful analysis he's put into stuff on his own blog is staggering. I think other people who worryingly cite the cost as looking too low are just trying to hedge their bets against disappointment. I'm sure you'd agree that the entire country is in this weird mode where we think any given number for infrastructure is too high, so there's some desire to imagine how much more it might cost than planned so that one day when they announce it, it's not a huge shock. Or something like that. But I think overall people on here are pretty positive about all kinds of developments...

Theres an Estimated 10.2 Million Railbuffs and Transit buffs....in North America....along with Transit Advocates , Historians and photographers... Only the Northeast seems to whine , In the Midwest or West Coast they would love and embrace and have embraced the HSR plans despite the costs... So say we use 30th street , could we build a straighter route and New station?

[josef]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Theres an Estimated 10.2 Million Railbuffs and Transit buffs....in North America....along with Transit Advocates , Historians and photographers... Only the Northeast seems to whine , In the Midwest or West Coast they would love and embrace and have embraced the HSR plans despite the costs... So say we use 30th street , could we build a straighter route and New station?

I'm definitely not up on my numbers anywhere near as you are, but it's stange as hell to me to hear that people in the Midwest wholeheartedly embrace rail of any kind. I thought the Midwest was where senators and representatives who voted againt all kinds of important infrastructure that wasn't road-related came from.