Atlantic Canada airport thread

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Porter's fleet only has Dash 8-400s and E195s and I can't imagine there would be enough demand for traffic between YSJ and a YHZ to use a plane of that size.

I know. AC used to use those little Beech 1900's but I think they have retired them all....although maybe Air Georgian still has some. edit Whoops! looks like they ceased operations in 2020.

I wonder if it might not be something run by PAL.
I suppose any additional activity at YSJ is positive but we really need some competition to AC. Only Westjet or Porter can offer that in terms of connecting to a relatively extensive North American route map.

[magee_b]

Over on Airliners.net, there’s a few folks tracking the Porter fleet. There’s definitely slack in their DH4 fleet out of Ottawa for a lot more routes there, just need more pilots. I’ve always heard it’s more a matter of when, not if, Porter will return to YSJ (probably via Ottawa first). So that could be something.

Also of note. PAL has an application in (or approved - not clear) to operate to the US, whereby they would run the YHZ-BOS/EWR flights on behalf of AC. They do have aircraft coming from AC as part of their arrangement with them for some of the Atlantic Canada flying they are doing. So, possible that they start re-opening the YHZ-YSJ/YFC/YQM/YYG routes as part of that to get more feed into flights PAL/AC flights out of YHZ (much like the EVAS/Jazz days)

We’ll have to wait and see. But I’d say any announcement for new routes for YSJ would either be Porter or PAL(with AC interline)

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by magee_b

Over on Airliners.net, there’s a few folks tracking the Porter fleet. There’s definitely slack in their DH4 fleet out of Ottawa for a lot more routes there, just need more pilots. I’ve always heard it’s more a matter of when, not if, Porter will return to YSJ (probably via Ottawa first). So that could be something.

Also of note. PAL has an application in (or approved - not clear) to operate to the US, whereby they would run the YHZ-BOS/EWR flights on behalf of AC. They do have aircraft coming from AC as part of their arrangement with them for some of the Atlantic Canada flying they are doing. So, possible that they start re-opening the YHZ-YSJ/YFC/YQM/YYG routes as part of that to get more feed into flights PAL/AC flights out of YHZ (much like the EVAS/Jazz days)

We’ll have to wait and see. But I’d say any announcement for new routes for YSJ would either be Porter or PAL(with AC interline)

Well, fingers crossed it's Porter and not PAL operating on behalf of AC. Given the pricing disparity between AC flights from YSJ and flights from other Maritime airports we desperately need the competition.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I am becoming increasingly convinced that Air Canada's long range goal is to kill demand in and out of YSJ in order to justify abandoning the route.

My youngest just booked to come home from Vancouver in June.

Air Canada YVR to YQM....$480 return
Air Canada YVR to YSJ......$1400+ return

Doesn't seem to far off. Also, keep in mind that Saint John has the largest Air Canada call centre with over 300 employees. Wouldn't surprise me if some genius executive at AC thought up a way to save a bit of money by cutting down on Saint John call centre employees using their flight benefits, by cancelling a bunch of YSJ routes. Can't exactly do that for Montreal, Tampa Bay, or Winnipeg, but little ole' Saint Jean? n'est-ce pas!

We need better regulation of airline pricing, and more competition among Canadian airlines, yesterday!

I don't see how they could actually justify abandoning Saint John while keeping Bathurst, but Air Canada will never surprise me with their continued commitment to making flying in and out of Saint John, difficult.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Would be great to see Porter back, but also would like to see Flair expand their flight options (especially a route to Montreal, Boston, or New York). I've flown with Flair many times to Toronto, and never had a problem, despite hearing absolute horror stories about them from people in other cities.

Crazily enough, I was looking at flights to Montreal a few months ago, and it was actually cheaper to fly to Orlando from Saint John, then book a second flight to Montreal, than it was to fly to Montreal directly from Saint John! Airline pricing is has always been absurd, but that's some next level crap!

Would happily never fly with Air Canada again if possible, especially not flying back to Saint John with Air Canada via Montreal after coming off an international flight, it's just not worth it! They set you up with connections where either you or your luggage will not make it on the flight. I've Never once had that problem coming back to Saint John through Toronto after an international flight.

[sailor734]

I think Flair is probably more focused on making payroll next week than adding routes.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I think Flair is probably more focused on making payroll next week than adding routes.

lol good one!

We better hope they survive... YSJ with Air Canada as the only option would be truly grim!

[sailor734]

Flair's survival is of little interest to me. They don't offer routes I normally fly and a service just to Toronto is of little value to me.

Plus I like a deal as much as the next guy but their barebones/no service model isn't really up my alley. Bring on Porter!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Flair's survival is of little interest to me. They don't offer routes I normally fly and a service just to Toronto is of little value to me.

Plus I like a deal as much as the next guy but their barebones/no service model isn't really up my alley. Bring on Porter!

They have a flight to Orlando too, which is really good value.

It would be quite a tremendous loss for YSJ if Flair folded.

You can hop on a Flair flight to Toronto for well under $200 with checked luggage and a carry on, and they even have tickets for as cheap as $50 with no checked baggage or carry on. Not sure what type of services you’d require on a one hour flight to Toronto , but it’s absolutely a tremendous value. And while I never suggest anyone book same day separate bookings— it is an option for the not so risk averse.


There’s something to be said for loyalty isn’t there? Flair stuck with YSJ, while Porter pulled out quite quickly. I’m all for Porter to come back, since more competition in the marketplace is always a good thing, but I wouldn’t hold your breath waiting for that to happen. Porter isn’t exactly known for being a full service airline either, it’s not that different than Flair, really. They’d likely only offer flights to Toronto and Ottawa like last time, and maybe Boston..

Porter’s service to Boston from Fredericton, btw, is a more than 7 hour journey which connects through Toronto, pretty much defeating the purpose of “flying to Boston”, considering that it’s literally quicker to drive to Boston at that point, from either Fredericton or Saint John. I’d rather drive down to Maine and hop on a bus or train to Boston then travel 7 hours via Toronto.

Not sure what routes out of YSJ you’d realistically expect Porter to offer, or what services they offer that make them a fundamentally better experience than Flair, but it sounds like you have some pretty unrealistic expectations for Porter to offer your preferred routes upon their return to YSY.

From a simple perspective of competition and availability, you should hope Flair sticks around.

Personally, I’d vastly prefer Flair to stay afloat and add some direct routes like Montreal or Boston, than see the return of Porter to YSJ with service to Toronto and Ottawa.

If Porter had a flight to Boston that went through YFC and YSJ, instead of Toronto. That would be outstanding!

[Bishop2047]

I will never forgive the SJ airport for this little pre-pandemic stunt. Teasing a Boston flight only to go radio silent.

Originally Posted by magee_b

YSJ hinting on social media about some sort of "Big Announcement" coming tomorrow.



https://twitter.com/YourSJAirport/status/1031542332867440640


I mean, the most obvious thing is Boston, but would be curious who would even take that route on given the current realities of hub & spoke air travel. A weird one off Porter route? Delta?

[Justanothermember]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I will never forgive the SJ airport for this little pre-pandemic stunt. Teasing a Boston flight only to go radio silent.

Is it just me or does this look like the same kind of 'Big Announcement' messaging that was issued for Fredericton announcing their WestJet to Calgary seasonal flight?

I'm still feeling WS YSJ seasonal to YYC vibes for this one, sadly.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Bishop2047

I will never forgive the SJ airport for this little pre-pandemic stunt. Teasing a Boston flight only to go radio silent.

Post was deleted.

It’s frustrating to think that Saint John has gone from having a boat to Boston, daily direct flights to Boston, trains to Boston, and I believe at one point we had a bus service too.

Canadian airlines headquartered in Montreal, Toronto, and Calgary rarely take chances on servicing smaller centres like Saint John. The federal government needs to do a far better job regulating airlines and making sure the airlines are putting more of the massive subsidies they receive into servicing smaller centres like Saint John. At least we actually have have seen prices come down with the entry of the budget airlines, but more still needs to be done. Air Canada cutting all kinds of YSJ routes is frustrating as hell, and the government should have more influence to prevent such things from happening.

The obvious solution to connect NB with Boston is a bus. While, we’d all love to see train service brought back, it would be a very costly, very complicated endeavour to restore passenger rail service to Boston. With a bus, the only complication is the border, but that’s far from an insurmountable obstacle. Looking up that Fredericton to Boston flight which is scheduled to take 7 hours and 7 minutes to get people to Boston via Toronto only further reinforces the notion that a bus is most logical solution to connect New Brunswick and New England.

If Higgs’s neighbour from Quispamsis turned tourism Tsar had went on a mission to Boston to negotiate a deal for bus routes between New Brunswick and Boston, instead of gallivanting around Europe stuffing herself with caviar and champagne no doubt, maybe Higgs and Tourism New Brunswick wouldn’t be under so much scrutiny at the moment. Perhaps we’d even be praising them for their initiative in better connecting New Brunswick with prospective tourists in New England.

If I had to guess, Blaine Higgs, Yennah Hurley, and Tammy Scott-Wallace probably all think busses are “gross”, and wouldn’t be bringing the right type of tourists that we need for New Brunswick— or something dumb like that.

Perhaps I’m being too cynical. It’s possible that Tammy and Yennah’s Eurotrip will end up being a seminal moment in New Brunswick tourism and they secretly negotiated a bunch of direct flights to Europe. I can see it now:

Moncton -> Paris

Fredericton -> London

Saint John -> Dublin

[sailor734]

The thing with Flair is that while it may offer a cheap fare from point to point on certain dates it does not offer a full daily schedule, the ability to connect to an extensive network of routes or to connect to other airlines through interline agreements.

In order to pressure AC to make their pricing out of YSJ more competitive we need an airline that can do all of the above. In the current environment the only real option is Porter. (That's assuming you believe Westjet will continue to focus their attention on the west as they announced some time ago)

I was interested to see that Porter now has codeshare and interline agreements with Alaska, Jet Blue and Delta among others.

https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/abou...rline-partners

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

The thing with Flair is that while it may offer a cheap fare from point to point on certain dates it does not offer a full daily schedule, the ability to connect to an extensive network of routes or to connect to other airlines through interline agreements.

In order to pressure AC to make their pricing out of YSJ more competitive we need an airline that can do all of the above. In the current environment the only real option is Porter. (That's assuming you believe Westjet will continue to focus their attention on the west as they announced some time ago)

I was interested to see that Porter now has codeshare and interline agreements with Alaska, Jet Blue and Delta among others.

https://www.flyporter.com/en-ca/abou...rline-partners

Porter has interline agreements? News to me. Sounds like something Flair should definitely pursue more aggressively if they stay afloat, and I'm sure the American airlines would be more than happy to accommodate them for the right price.

Hope Flair sticks around and Porter returns... just as you said previously, the more competition the better. Even if they stay a strict budget airline, Flair adding flights to Montreal or Boston would be amazing.

I'd be happy with a regular bus service to Boston or even Bangor though. YSJ might not be happy about such a service, but it would sure give us all some better budget travel options. How much is YSJ really making off every long haul flight we take via Toronto or Montreal anyways?

[stephan.richard]

It would be nice to have new routes out of the province of New Brunswick but it all comes down to economics. We used to have twice daily service from Moncton to Newark with United /Continental. When we had that route in the area although the flights were filled at 85-90% the flight was still losing money on the route.
Airlines have extensive statistics when doing their route planning and analysis. The main factor they look when determining a new toute is how many passengers will call destination XYZ as their final destination. For an example if an passenger books a let’s say Moncton to Myrtle Beach flight at then moment you would pay 1200.00 round trip and that revenue gets divided on the various segments you fly so the YQM to YYZ flight gets a portion, then YYZ to EWR gets another one and the EWR to MYR gets the rest and so on. So with that being said here in the province without massive subsidies in the tune of tens of million of dollars the big 3 or even big four US carriers do not even have the three New Brunswick Airports on their B or C list as far as launching new routes.
When it come to European route YQM had some in the past with Canada 3000, Corsair, and Condor. As Isaid in the previous paragraph if the routes would have been well supported we would probably still have them.
Now the thing that is challenging for many airlines at the moment is a human resource as well as aircraft shortage that is preventing many airlines to expand.
To summarize it would take tens of millions to get a new route to be developed and at the moment we are not in the aim in the province from the big 3 in Canada or the United States for transborder and transatlantic flights.
Personally I would welcome a flight to the United States from the province. That would help me not to drive down to Halifax, Bangor and Portland to fly to Myrtle Beach.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by stephan.richard

It would be nice to have new routes out of the province of New Brunswick but it all comes down to economics. We used to have twice daily service from Moncton to Newark with United /Continental. When we had that route in the area although the flights were filled at 85-90% the flight was still losing money on the route.
Airlines have extensive statistics when doing their route planning and analysis. The main factor they look when determining a new toute is how many passengers will call destination XYZ as their final destination. For an example if an passenger books a let’s say Moncton to Myrtle Beach flight at then moment you would pay 1200.00 round trip and that revenue gets divided on the various segments you fly so the YQM to YYZ flight gets a portion, then YYZ to EWR gets another one and the EWR to MYR gets the rest and so on. So with that being said here in the province without massive subsidies in the tune of tens of million of dollars the big 3 or even big four US carriers do not even have the three New Brunswick Airports on their B or C list as far as launching new routes.
When it come to European route YQM had some in the past with Canada 3000, Corsair, and Condor. As Isaid in the previous paragraph if the routes would have been well supported we would probably still have them.
Now the thing that is challenging for many airlines at the moment is a human resource as well as aircraft shortage that is preventing many airlines to expand.
To summarize it would take tens of millions to get a new route to be developed and at the moment we are not in the aim in the province from the big 3 in Canada or the United States for transborder and transatlantic flights.
Personally I would welcome a flight to the United States from the province. That would help me not to drive down to Halifax, Bangor and Portland to fly to Myrtle Beach.

Sounds like the logical solution is one major NB airport for the three major centres, built at a strategic location and connected by shuttles or a rail network.

Not going to happen anytime soon, but a single airport shared by the three major centres would be an absolute game changer in terms of all the things you've listed above when it comes to the airline's demographic analysis.

Provincial and federal dollars put towards subsidizing flights seems like a good idea, anyways. Smaller centres shouldn't have to have to so bad, it's a valid use of government funds to try and improve airline routes in and out of NB. It would certainly help boost tourism into the province if there were more, cheaper flights to get here. I have a friend from Europe coming to visit next year, and I'm going to have to drive to pick him up in Halifax or even Boston.

NB should def make this more of a priority, but might be a hard sell in the middle of a housing crisis, even if there is an economic argument for such subsidies.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

airlines and...the massive subsidies they receive

What "massive subsidies" are they receiving?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

What "massive subsidies" are they receiving?

Yeah, I wondered about that too. If anything the feds treat air travel like a cash cow. One of the contributing causes for our high airfares is that we pay much higher fees than other countries (Landing fees, security fees NavCan user fees , airport passenger fess etc etc)

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

What "massive subsidies" are they receiving?

They receive billions in support.

[stephan.richard]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

What "massive subsidies" are they receiving?

When WestJet launched their Saskatoon to Minneapolis Saint Paul. The province, the business community shelled out millions to launch that route. Plus when WestJet was doing their Toronto to Myrtle Beach flight if the route did not meet targets the airport had to pay WestJet a penalty. So some routes are heavily subsidized.