Thoughts on first Denver Visit

[LA21st]

I feel like its been a while since Denver was talked about here.
My first time in Denver and Colorado really, and I have to admire all the infill happening in the downtown/central area. Especially around Union Station, south Capitol Hill (?) and the 38th and Platte area (?). Sorry, I wasn't familiar with the neighborhood names yet.

TOD is everywhere it seems. They're doing a great job with that. The Union Station RTD bus and train connecions are quite nice and somewhat unique for America, as far as I know. At least for a city it's size.

Downtown itself is interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to make of it. 16th street mall is cool as is parts around Union Station and Lodo, but the more I explored the CBD, I don't know what's going on there. I recently read the office vacancy downtown is almost 40 percent? Still, the urbanity for its population is impressive. But kinda empty for all the midrises and highrises? I also didnt see any highrises uc, like over 25-30 floors. Everything was in the 10-15 range it seemed. Which is fine, but just a observation. But all the uc was like on the outskirts of downtown.

I liked the transit, impressive for a metro it's size and how the train lines intersect outside of downttown. Pretty rare for America. That said, the trains felt empty. Little shocking, and I wonder what the ridership is. Pedestrain activity didnt really stand out, but it wasn't bad either. The storefront vacancy thing seemed in line with everywhere else Ive been post covid. It's all the same shit.

After hearing the mountains aren't next to the city, I understand those comments now. I've watched yt videos of the distance but seeing it in person hit in a different way. They dont seem that accessible if you were gonna go after work or something. Weekends, sure. That said, there's other parks everywhere. But speaking of that, I didn't see the "crazy active" resident thing like social media says. I didn't see a difference between Denver and LA for peoplle biking, running, hiking etc. The trails were quieter than LA too. I expected to see people doing cardio everywhere,and that wasnt the case. It was perfect weather the entire time btw.

That all said, I liked the metro area and can see why it's so talked about on social media. It feels bigger than the 4 million CSA population for sure. I might like it more than others because I hike and like mountains, but the city was pretty solid imo. Feels like where the midwest meets the west to me. A bit of both.
Lodo and Rino felt very midwestern. So did Capitol Hill.

Oh,and Boulder has to be one of my favorite college towns now. Great place.

[xzmattzx]

Not to single you out, but since I have the first response, I wonder if there should be a separate "I'm Visiting ___"/"Thoughts about ___" section on here. There were threads like that about Winnipeg, Minneapolis, and some others. Or, can anyone do that for any places they visit? I am planning on going to Minneapolis in August (and neighboring states), and may want to post my thoughts.


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Regarding the Denver area, the mountains are not next to the city, but they are next to the suburbs. I drove up a mountain next to Golden to get a view of that town.

Rocky Mountain National Park is around 90 minutes away from Downtown Denver. It's about 45 minutes from Longmont, if I remember from my travels.

[mhays]

Denver does have a pretty good amount of infill, and has densified significantly. Transit use does seem awful light despite the nice rail map (census ACS stats, APTA stats). I wouldn't call it terribly interesting but the city does a lot of things well. I'm jealous that they built their Commons park while we (Seattle) failed to pass ours.

If this turns into a "what we think after visiting other cities" thread, I also visited Miami recently, the first time I've really explored on foot. There's good train service from the airport to the center, though I was the only person with a suitcase in my car in either direction. You have to take a separate people mover to get to the airport fully. Brickell is getting legit as a downtown neighborhood given the new mall and a lot of new residential towers, which are still under construction in big numbers including some apparent new starts. The people mover within Downtown/Brickell/etc. was useful though the day I rode (Sunday 5/10?) they were doing work and trains were labeled with the wrong routes. I hung out in South Beach for a few hours but didn't do a ton of walking because it was deathly hot and humid.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Not to single you out, but since I have the first response, I wonder if there should be a separate "I'm Visiting ___"/"Thoughts about ___" section on here. There were threads like that about Winnipeg, Minneapolis, and some others. Or, can anyone do that for any places they visit? I am planning on going to Minneapolis in August (and neighboring states), and may want to post my thoughts.


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Regarding the Denver area, the mountains are not next to the city, but they are next to the suburbs. I drove up a mountain next to Golden to get a view of that town.

Rocky Mountain National Park is around 90 minutes away from Downtown Denver. It's about 45 minutes from Longmont, if I remember from my travels.

No worries. I wouldnt mind if it was consolidated into a bigger thread about first time observations. Just wanted to put thoughts here because I know people know Denver well on this forum.

[mr1138]

As a Denver local, I'm always interested in getting thoughts from others on this forum about their perspective.

Denver's office collapse after covid was really something, and the local press keeps talking about it. I have my fingers crossed that office conversions like this one will help make downtown feel vibrant again. I think the high office vacancy and trend toward residential conversions is what has stalled highrise construction downtown lately.

Denver has changed a lot for the better in my life. In the 90s, it was little more than a 9-5 business district. The opening of the baseball stadium and the cleanup and activation of the riverfront has been extremely transformative.

But Denver has always felt a little boom or bust to me. There are times, like when there are a lot of sports events going on or during the No King's rally, when downtown can get VERY crowded. Other days it can feel a bit empty and you wonder where all the people are. Again, I hope that more residential units downtown can help activate more retail and even out that cycle a bit.

I'm glad to hear you think the TODs are doing well. I live in one of the better ones, and I also have trouble explaining the lack of ridership, except for the fact that I still think we need like 5X the population in the TODs, and the connecting bus lines all seem to be shit. Colorado recently passed some legislation to force suburbs to accept more density and relax parking requirements near their train stations, but many cities are now exerting their "home rule," and it is unclear if the courts will take the state's side and force them to change their zoning.


Regarding mountain proximity, it's true that Denver proper does not really have access to the mountains for an after-work hike. That is pretty much reserved for the western suburbs and for Boulder. You can get to BIG hiking trails though in only about 1-2 hours, so while it is true you need the weekend to do that, this is still about the closest access to big mountains of just about any major city I can think of (except maybe Seattle).

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by mr1138

As a Denver local, I'm always interested in getting thoughts from others on this forum about their perspective.

Denver's office collapse after covid was really something, and the local press keeps talking about it. I have my fingers crossed that office conversions like this one will help make downtown feel vibrant again. I think the high office vacancy and trend toward residential conversions is what has stalled highrise construction downtown lately.

Denver has changed a lot for the better in my life. In the 90s, it was little more than a 9-5 business district. The opening of the baseball stadium and the cleanup and activation of the riverfront has been extremely transformative.

But Denver has always felt a little boom or bust to me. There are times, like when there are a lot of sports events going on or during the No King's rally, when downtown can get VERY crowded. Other days it can feel a bit empty and you wonder where all the people are. Again, I hope that more residential units downtown can help activate more retail and even out that cycle a bit.

I'm glad to hear you think the TODs are doing well. I live in one of the better ones, and I also have trouble explaining the lack of ridership, except for the fact that I still think we need like 5X the population in the TODs, and the connecting bus lines all seem to be shit. Colorado recently passed some legislation to force suburbs to accept more density and relax parking requirements near their train stations, but many cities are now exerting their "home rule," and it is unclear if the courts will take the state's side and force them to change their zoning.


Regarding mountain proximity, it's true that Denver proper does not really have access to the mountains for an after-work hike. That is pretty much reserved for the western suburbs and for Boulder. You can get to BIG hiking trails though in only about 1-2 hours, so while it is true you need the weekend to do that, this is still about the closest access to big mountains of just about any major city I can think of (except maybe Seattle).

I feel like on average, the TOD is better than LA or SD anyway. LA's improving there but still underwhelming than it should be. It looks Denver's TOD and train lines are buildng for the future, maybe?
I didnt take the bus often so I cant speak on bus ridership or service really.

16th Street mall seemed to be fine? Some vacancies of coruse, but that's everywhere. I didnt think it was dead or anything.

Regarding mountains, I think LA is in that mix too, if you include the San Gabriels. But same thing, not really a after work thing but, theHollywood Hills has its own trails,but those mountains aren't huge per se. Those are after work hikes for people.

[mhays]

Salt Lake, Boise, and Boulder start their hills (leading to mountains) within walking distance of their downtowns.

Portland has a 5,000-acre forest park from the fringe of its downtown to the outer suburbs.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Regarding mountains, I think LA is in that mix too, if you include the San Gabriels. But same thing, not really a after work thing but, the Hollywood Hills has its own trails, but those mountains aren't huge per se. Those are after work hikes for people.

My friends and I like to hike and backpack a lot, so this comes up quite often. You have basically echoed what we always say: Yes the San Gabriels are close to LA, but those mountains don't compare to the Rockies. The Sierra Nevada compares to the Rockies, but are more like 3-4 hours outside San Francisco, whereas Denver can be closer to 1-2 hours from some of the "big mountains."

I think Seattle is very close to the Cascades. Although hiking in that climate seems like a whole other experience (down jackets and sleeping bags loose their insulating properties when wet, so we'd need all new gear).

I also have to assume that, the larger the city, the more time it actually takes to get out of the city. This would be especially true in a place like NYC, which might be less than 4 hours from the Adirondack Mountains, but with traffic could take much longer. Same with San Francisco. If you don't own a car that might slow you down too - although it isn't necessarily a bad thing to eventually put some friction between the city and nature to slow down the demand a bit.

Originally Posted by mhays

Salt Lake, Boise, and Boulder start their hills (leading to mountains) within walking distance of their downtowns.

Portland has a 5,000-acre forest park from the fringe of its downtown to the outer suburbs.

Fair point, but Denver almost isn't big or urban enough for me, and Salt Lake, Portland, and Boise all have even smaller metro areas, so I never think of them in the "major city category." My husband only wants to live near the mountains, and I only want to live in a big-enough city (though I would prefer a city more like Boston or Chicago), so Denver strikes the right balance for us. We often think Seattle and Portland look great too, but aren't sure we could handle the rain or dark winters.

Boulder is awesome, but is also really just an exurb of Denver.

[BigDipper 80]

I'm glad someone else noticed that Denver feels a bit more like a Midwestern/Great Plains city in some areas than it does other Mountain West cities like SLC. Curtis Park has always reminded me of Columbus and the neighborhoods around City Park could have been lifted out of Kansas City. Cherry Creek feels like a modern update to KCMO's Country Club Plaza mixed in with a bit of Costa Mesa's South Coast Plaza area.

[LA21st]

Def.

Boulder felt more "west". Maybe that's the college town and close proximity to the mountains, but the vibe wasn't as midwesternish to me.

[Crawford]

Denver is (or was) an extremely hot city for young, educated white Midwesterners. I wonder if this sorta influences the feel. It seems pretty Western to me, but they get a ton of kids from universities like Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa, and a decent amount from the traditional B10 universities.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by mr1138

I think Seattle is very close to the Cascades. Although hiking in that climate seems like a whole other experience (down jackets and sleeping bags loose their insulating properties when wet, so we'd need all new gear).

If you hike in the winter or shoulder season, then yes it can be rainy, as well as snowy. But the summer is bone dry in Seattle and to some extent the surrounding mountains.

Also, the leeward sides of the Olympics and Cascades are dramatically drier than the upwind sides.

[Six Corners]

I have an acquaintance who grew up in Denver and who has likened it to being a large Omaha. I don't think he meant that comment as a particularly positive one, but as an Omaha native (and booster) and relatively frequent traveler to Denver, I believe the comparison is quite fair. Denver is more arid but the look and feel of a lot of it is more similar to Omaha to me than, for example, my current home of St. Louis is.

[LA21st]

Parts of Denver looked arid (the eastern/some northern side) but parts looked pretty green to me. Then again, i'm in LA so....

The eastern side looked pretty arid even for LA though. It looked more like the Inland Empire if not, more arid? Idk. It was weird. I'm not familiar with the plains topography in person.
The grass looked sorta...grey?

[202_Cyclist]

I have never been to Denver but this article in the WSJ looks interesting and relevant to this thread.

Can This Guy Get People to Live in America’s Emptiest Downtown?
Developer Asher Luzzatto has targeted Denver for one of the most radical experiments yet in converting vacant commercial space into residential units

https://www.wsj.com/real-estate/commercial/america-s-emptiest-downtown-f1f4cdf1?eafs_enabled=false

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Parts of Denver looked arid (the eastern/some northern side) but parts looked pretty green to me. Then again, i'm in LA so....

The eastern side looked pretty arid even for LA though. It looked more like the Inland Empire if not, more arid? Idk. It was weird. I'm not familiar with the plains topography in person.
The grass looked sorta...grey?

You are not wrong. Denver is VERY arid. Naturally, the landscape had no trees, except for small patches of Cottonwoods near some riverbanks. ALL of the green that you see in the city is thanks to irrigation. There is an active movement to remove bluegrass and replace it with native or xeric landscaping. My understanding is that trees can be kept alive with much lower-water drip irrigation systems.

If you look on a large-scale satellite photo, you will clearly see a green/brown line somewhere along 37 or 38 degrees west. Oklahoma City is directly on this rain line (roughly the I-35 corridor), so the eastern suburbs are forested, and the western suburbs end in prairie. In Colorado and Nebraska, the Platte River and its associated irrigation system allows green farmland to extend further west.

With that said, this year has been the hottest and driest winter in Denver's recorded history. When I flew home from Atlanta in March, the eastern plains looked like a barren desert from above, and that is not normally what it looks like. Especially not in the spring.

But the state quickly becomes more lush as you go up in elevation. At about 6,000 feet in elevation, the prairie gives way to Ponderosa Pine (montane), then above about 7,500 feet you are in a subalpine forest, and above about 10,000 feet you enter an alpine (fir and spruce) forest.

Interestingly, the vertical transition from dry to wet is even more dramatic out west. Down near the four corners (Durango and Telluride), the landscape begins as a desert and then changes to a LUSH alpine forest at higher elevations that gets more rainfall than the eastern slope.

[Pavlov]

Calgary has similarly struggled with office vacancy in its CBD. Its office conversion incentives have been very successful (I think its fair to say its seen as a North American leader in these kinds of programs).

Calgary has become the clearest proof that office-to-residential conversion can move beyond isolated experiments and reshape an entire downtown. In a core once defined by energy company headquarters and chronic vacancy, more than 2.68 million square feet of former office space is now being transformed into housing, hotels, and mixed uses. These projects will deliver at least 2,655 homes and bring more than 4,200 residents into the downtown, permanently changing the district’s economic and social foundation. What makes Calgary notable is not simply that conversions are happening, but that they are occurring at a scale large enough to materially reduce office inventory and repopulate the core.

https://propmodo.com/playbook/thousands-of-homes-are-rising-inside-calgarys-office-towers/

The conversions have attracted, not discouraged, new build residential development in the CBD and in the larger downtown area.

Calgary and Denver are similar in many (though obviously not all) ways, so might be something for Denver to look at replicating?

[mhays]

Calgary's offices hit huge vacancy rates a dozen years ago, far earlier than Denver or the typical other city, where Covid-era WFH was the big trigger.

They heavily subsidize building conversions. Denver helps conversions but as much? I'm seeing $75/sf for Calgary.

Calgary's demand might also relate to having less US-style street disorder, about four times Denver's per capita transit ridership (some pluses and minuses for downtown housing demand), and concentrating a huge percentage of local office space downtown.

[Serenade]

Always found it funny when the someone says Denver has that adventurous, outdoor, pioneering spirit. The first white Denver inhabitants probably saw the mountains and said fuck it, we're settling here.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by Serenade

Always found it funny when the someone says Denver has that adventurous, outdoor, pioneering spirit. The first white Denver inhabitants probably saw the mountains and said fuck it, we're settling here.

Denver's first wave of white settlers came for the gold.