Combined, Washington-Baltimore now outsizes Chicago as America’s 3rd largest CSA

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Define low? What large MSAs in the U.S. besides SF/SJ and DC/Baltimore have more inter-metro commuters than NY and Philadelphia?

Below the 15% share required to be part of a same CSA. There are probably numbers available out there, but if I had to guess I'd say it's something around 3% at most.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

We're not talking about NYC, we're talking about metropolitan labor pools. A job in Princeton or New Brunswick is part of the NY labor market, but would be reasonably accessible to people that live in parts of the Philadelphia metro area.

Tampa/Orlando (and many others) would be the same near their borders. This "county line road" in the middle of Central FL suburbia is the boundary of Tampa CSA and Orlando CSA. The boundary is literally a 30 minute drive (or less) from Downtown Tampa.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Po...!4d-81.6911559

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Below the 15% share required to be part of a same CSA. There are probably numbers available out there, but if I had to guess I'd say it's something around 3% at most.

Are you saying your guess is 3% of the bordering counties, or 3% of the entire metro?

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Are you saying your guess is 3% of the bordering counties, or 3% of the entire metro?

By reading the CSA definition, I understood it's between MSAs. New York has over 15 million people right in the 1,500 sq mi core, living and working there, far away from Philadelphia MSA borders.

With such massive centre, it would be incredibly hard for only the people living and working in the edges to makeup those 15%.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Yuri

By reading the CSA definition, I understood it's between MSAs. New York has over 15 million people right in the 1,500 sq mi core, living and working there, far away from Philadelphia MSA borders.

With such massive centre, it would be incredibly hard for only the people living and working in the edges to makeup those 15%.

If 3% of the NY MSA was traveling to Philadelphia's metro, that would be hundreds of thousands of people. It's definitely not 3% of the NY metro area traveling to Philadelphia, but that wasn't my point. My point is that there is a high degree of inter-metro commuting from the border counties between the NY and Phila. metros. According to this, over 6% of Bucks County, PA commuters, a core Phila. MSA county, went to Mercer County, NJ for work around 2010. Mercer County was, by far, the third most traveled destination for Bucks County commuters (not a surprise since they border each other) after Montgomery County and Philadelphia County.

[lio45]

Your point is that there exists an area in central NJ where one guy is in the Philly Labor Market and his neighbor across the street is in the NYC Labor Market.

No one disputes that.

It's also true for Chicago/Milwaukee, and Orlando/Tampa, and plenty other areas where there are two major cities that far enough from each other yet not so far that that their furthest suburbs don't touch.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

Your point is that there exists an area in central NJ where one guy is in the Philly Labor Market and his neighbor across the street is in the NYC Labor Market.

No one disputes that.

It's also true for Chicago/Milwaukee, and Orlando/Tampa, and plenty other areas where there are two major cities that far enough from each other yet not so far that that their furthest suburbs don't touch.

And the same thing could be true for those places. That doesn't detract from the point.

[lio45]

The point is that most of us seem to see a disctinction between "single labor market" and "separate labor markets that touch each other or even overlap at their fringes"; you on the other hand seem to think the latter automatically means the former.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

The point is that most of us seem to see a disctinction between "single labor market" and "separate labor markets that touch each other or even overlap at their fringes"; you on the other hand seem to think the latter automatically means the former.

Without a physical (e.g. NY/LA) or legal separation (e.g. Detroit/Windsor) a labor market that "touches" another is the same labor market. The distinction is arbitrary.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Without a physical (e.g. NY/LA) or legal separation (e.g. Detroit/Windsor) a labor market that "touches" another is the same labor market. The distinction is arbitrary.

By that logic, Coastal Maine through Richmond, VA is one single labor market.

The distinction isn't arbitrary: there are metrics (commuting patterns, etc.) and by those metrics, NYC and Philly are separate markets.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If 3% of the NY MSA was traveling to Philadelphia's metro, that would be hundreds of thousands of people. It's definitely not 3% of the NY metro area traveling to Philadelphia, but that wasn't my point. My point is that there is a high degree of inter-metro commuting from the border counties between the NY and Phila. metros. According to this, over 6% of Bucks County, PA commuters, a core Phila. MSA county, went to Mercer County, NJ for work around 2010. Mercer County was, by far, the third most traveled destination for Bucks County commuters (not a surprise since they border each other) after Montgomery County and Philadelphia County.

Few years ago, Brazilian Statistical Office decided to emulate US Census Bureau and worked with a “scientific” definition. Previously, metro areas were a mere random and symbolic organizations defined by state assemblies.

Anyway, aside the relative cut, they came up with an absolute number criteria (over +10,000 people in both directions). The US Census Bureau, however, doesn’t have this shortcut. And even down here, when Brazilian Office found out Santos, Jundiaí and even Campinas had almost 40,000 people each of commute with São Paulo, they simply ignored on the official publication and decided to keep them separated just because. Otherwise, SP Macrometropole would be simply São Paulo metro area with 33 million inh.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by lio45

The distinction isn't arbitrary: there are metrics (commuting patterns, etc.) and by those metrics, NYC and Philly are separate markets.

Okay, what's the purpose of separating Mercer County and Bucks County into two "labor pools"?

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Okay, what's the purpose of separating Mercer County and Bucks County into two "labor pools"?

Because all metro areas are defined using political jurisdictions. Brazilian municipalities, for instance, are the side of US counties.

And Mercer County send more people to NY MSA than to PHI MSA. And Bucks County more to Philadelphia than to Mercer.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Okay, what's the purpose of separating Mercer County and Bucks County into two "labor pools"?

I suppose I can agree with you that a more complicated, finer-grained system of looking at "labor pools" would have more tiers: Philly Proper Labor Pool, NYC Proper Labor Pool, and a third Labor Pool In The Middle where you can not-that-unrealistically commute to either if you're willing to endure a crazy long commute (and are frankly better off just finding a job in Central NJ, or else relocating to be much closer to your current job).

If you are offering a physical job in Philly, the pool of applicants is almost certainly not going to include any New Yorker who doesn't want to relocate. Ergo, separate labor markets.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by lio45

I suppose I can agree with you that a more complicated, finer-grained system of looking at "labor pools" would have more tiers: Philly Proper Labor Pool, NYC Proper Labor Pool, and a third Labor Pool In The Middle where you can not-that-unrealistically commute to either if you're willing to endure a crazy long commute (and are frankly better off just finding a job in Central NJ, or else relocating to be much closer to your current job).

If you are offering a physical job in Philly, the pool of applicants is almost certainly not going to include any New Yorker who doesn't want to relocate. Ergo, separate labor markets.

The way the census bureau could most easily accomplish this is to allow outlying counties to be included in more than one metro area. Mercer and Bucks would thus be in both NYC and Philly metros and together would constitute an overlap between the two metros.

NYC and Philly are not the same labor market, but they do have a small overlap on the fringes. The census bureau numbers should reflect this.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Define low? What large MSAs in the U.S. besides SF/SJ and DC/Baltimore have more inter-metro commuters than NY and Philadelphia?

You can pepper forumers with questions all you want, but at the end of the day, nobody here officially determines what constitutes a single labor market, or the boundaries of metropolitan areas. That is the purview of the Office of Budget and Management. Perhaps you can forward to them all of your data and make your case with them.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

We're not talking about NYC, we're talking about metropolitan labor pools. A job in Princeton or New Brunswick is part of the NY labor market, but would be reasonably accessible to people that live in parts of the Philadelphia metro area.

People on the fringes one metro closest to another one can and do work in the latter but still not sure if I'd call that any significant overlap. Seeing as we're talking more thinly populated areas within closer proximity of each other. Central Jersey is fairly sparse by NJ standards.

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Regardless, Gritty loves us all.

Gritty is all four horsemen of the apocalypse.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Gritty might be one of the few times reveling in batshit fuckery paid off. Even if it's a sign of the apocalypse, I'm all for it.

[mrnyc]

ne ohio is still a baller:

2019 Cleveland–Akron–Canton, OH CSA 3,586,918

[nito]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Yes, I personally know quite a few.

There is only one Acela service that gets into New York before 0900 (the 0732 from Philadelphia); a total of 10 trains a day with the fastest Acela service being the 1040 from Philadelphia (69mins), all other services make the journey in 74-78mins. There is neither the frequency, capacity or speed to make commuting between Philadelphia and New York viable outside of a handful of people.