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  #5761  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2022, 5:52 PM
worldtrade2021 worldtrade2021 is offline
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In addition to the need for an indoor windows on the world and outdoor observation deck setup at the top of 2 WTC, the Oculus Beer Garden restaurant should be incorporated into the eastern base level of 2 WTC when/if 2 WTC is built.


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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
I have a feeling we’ll get some good news before the end of the year.
There has been "good news" and many false starts for years now.

One thing that hasn't happened though is announcement of any official start to above ground construction for 2 WTC.

Another thing that hasn't happened is any signs of preparations being made for construction to resume on the 2 WTC site, such as new cranes, equipment, sectioning off of existing pavement areas, etc.

It is possible that as construction wraps up on the PAC, more news on 2 WTC will come forth, unless construction of 5 WTC suddenly becomes more of a priority (particularly since it has already been announced that construction of 5 WTC is scheduled to begin in 2023).

Historically, except for work on 1 WTC and 4 WTC being undergone simultaneously, the WTC site has seen development of each separate building of the complex start and end after a previous project wraps up. Examples are the construction of the Oculus and then a speed up of construction of 3 WTC, followed by construction of the PAC only once 3 WTC was fully built and open.
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  #5762  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2022, 8:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldtrade2021 View Post
There has been "good news" and many false starts for years now.
Yea, a lot of this was Hudson Yards soaking up tenants as others have mentioned.

People say it will definitely get built someday but who's to make sure it does? Silverstein will likely have passed by the time this even would break ground. On the bright side, the fact that they took the trouble to redesign it recently is somewhat promising I guess.
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  #5763  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2022, 10:54 PM
DCReid DCReid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapatan View Post
Yea, a lot of this was Hudson Yards soaking up tenants as others have mentioned.

People say it will definitely get built someday but who's to make sure it does? Silverstein will likely have passed by the time this even would break ground. On the bright side, the fact that they took the trouble to redesign it recently is somewhat promising I guess.
I'm guessing that it will not be started in n ay way until we hear about companies looking for a large amount of new space downtown, or with large leases downtown that are expiring soon. I would guess that they would at least need to be looking for 250K downtown. Just about all the NYC companies looking for space are looking in midtown or have leases expiring there; they don't seem interested in downtown right now. Even residential projects downtown are stalled right now, which is a bad sign.
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  #5764  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2022, 4:31 AM
worldtrade2021 worldtrade2021 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapatan View Post
Yea, a lot of this was Hudson Yards soaking up tenants as others have mentioned.
There's only more development in the pipeline in that location and other supertalls being developed all across New York, especially in Midtown. So that looks to continue, at least until the supertall building boom in places other than Lower Manhattan (and maybe also in Lower Manhattan outside of the WTC site) slows down, absent a recession.

The attitude a lot of people seem to have taken that is that unfortunately this is pretty much the final state of the new WTC, but that would be a definite setback for the lower manhattan skyline, as the new WTC site still looks incomplete and empty without a supertall 2 WTC. Also there are constantly people asking on the world trade center social media pages why 2 WTC hasn't been built, so not everyone is accepting of this lack of a 2 WTC tower being the final state of the WTC site.

Quote:
People say it will definitely get built someday but who's to make sure it does? Silverstein will likely have passed by the time this even would break ground. On the bright side, the fact that they took the trouble to redesign it recently is somewhat promising I guess.
It's almost like at this point Silverstein knows 2 WTC isn't going to be completed in his lifetime and so doesn't see a point in even starting construction if he's going to pass while construction still hasn't completed even after it has resumed. Also, possibly he doesn't want to risk building on spec and losing money on a tower that he likely won't be alive to see the opening of.

Similar such delays in construction of 4 WTC and 1 WTC were present before 2007 and that was the time when the Port Authority took control of the construction of 1 WTC. Perhaps with enough negative attention to lack of development at the 2 WTC site (which there was some of in reports on the 20th anniversary of 9/11), it will encourage the manager of that site (or whoever inherits ownership of that site, for example possibly the Port Authority) to resume construction quicker.

Usually more effort and money is spent on projects on the WTC site once a current project is wrapping up. Hopefully when construction on the PAC is wrapping up in 2023, more news about construction of 5 WTC will be announced and perhaps while 5 WTC is being constructed, news about the start of a definite above ground construction timeline for 2 WTC will be announced.

Right now it is looking like the order of opening will be St Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church (later in 2022), the PAC (currently scheduled to open in Fall 2023) and then 5 WTC, with 2 WTC likely being completed after 5 WTC is fully built and opened.

Since the PAC is still on schedule to be complete, the entire area west of Greenwich street on the official site is likely to be open by 2023. Along with the start of construction on 5 WTC scheduled in 2023, hopefully there will be enough new views and outdoor events to keep the site from looking too empty and stuck in time (like it has been since about 2018 aside from the PAC site).
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  #5765  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2022, 5:02 PM
skcr skcr is offline
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original photo from instagram: wtc
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  #5766  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2022, 6:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldtrade2021 View Post
There has been "good news" and many false starts for years now.

One thing that hasn't happened though is announcement of any official start to above ground construction for 2 WTC.
Well, as you yourself have correctly noted above, there has been no official restart of the above ground construction. We've always known Tower 2 would be built to grade, and wait for a tenant to build out the full tower. There have been no false starts on this tower. Talk of a potential tenant signing here would be good news, because as of now, there is none. Surely that is not the way you would like it to remain.




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Originally Posted by Zapatan View Post
People say it will definitely get built someday but who's to make sure it does? Silverstein will likely have passed by the time this even would break ground.
Well, for one thing, it will be built because Silverstein Properties is legally bound to rebuild it. People often forget that this is Port Authority property that Silverstein leases. He was legally bound to rebuild the Twin Towers, but due to the nature of 9/11, obviously that wasn't the case. But this is still government property that is leased out. It must be rebuilt.
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  #5767  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2022, 5:35 AM
worldtrade2021 worldtrade2021 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Well, as you yourself have correctly noted above, there has been no official restart of the above ground construction. We've always known Tower 2 would be built to grade, and wait for a tenant to build out the full tower. There have been no false starts on this tower. Talk of a potential tenant signing here would be good news, because as of now, there is none. Surely that is not the way you would like it to remain.
Of course I would not like it to remain this way and for 2 WTC to get an anchor tenant as soon as possible so that above ground construction can also begin as soon as possible.

However, it seems like potential anchor tenants are flocking to places like Hudson Yards or Midtown instead of the World Trade Center site in Lower Manhattan. This could mean that building on spec remains the most likely option and that construction on 2 WTC will only become more certain when current projects at the WTC site are completed.

It would be great to have the start of construction on 2 WTC begin within a few days to few weeks, but from past experience having seen the pace of construction at the WTC site, it does not seem likely that above ground construction on 2 WTC will resume until at least the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and PAC are completed and open (which is right now expected sometime in 2022 and Fall 2023, respectively).

Again as an example, priority to finish and open 1 WTC was overshadowed by finishing and opening the National 9/11 Memorial and Museum first, significant work on the Oculus and 3 WTC only picked up once 1 WTC and 4 WTC were completed and open, work to finish 3 WTC sped up after the Oculus was completed and open in 2016 and work on the northern part of the VSC and the PAC only started and sped up in 2018 after 3 WTC was completed and opened.

If history is any guide, going by this kind of timeline, it could be expected that once St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and the PAC are completed and open, construction on 5 WTC and 2 WTC will begin to be prioritized more and there will be much more news and signs of the start of construction on those sites compared to now.

By "false starts" I mean past talk hinting that the tower might be built soon.

An example of this can be seen in the the Wikipedia article on 2 World Trade Center:
Quote:
On February 11, 2019, Larry Silverstein said in an interview that he was considering building the tower without a signed tenant. He stated, "For all intents and purposes, it wouldn't be a bad idea to start on Tower 2 because it won't be finished until about 2022, 2023."[45]

45. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-signed-tenant
There has also been a lot of news in the past few years about potential tenants like Fox (2015) and Deutsche Bank (2017) signing on as tenants only to back out at the last minute in favor of staying in Midtown.

Additionally there has been many stories about proposals by Silverstein to build on spec, release official designs and hint at start of construction since 2019, but nothing has come of it.

https://therealdeal.com/2019/05/15/s...2-wtc-on-spec/
https://tribecacitizen.com/2020/01/2...o-world-trade/
https://therealdeal.com/2021/09/08/w...2-wtc-started/
https://web.archive.org/web/20210911...erstein-2021-9
https://www.dezeen.com/2022/02/16/tw...ster-partners/

That's why imo the encouraging signs will be not only be when start on above ground construction is announced (with or without (if the building on spec option proceeds) an anchor tenant of 2 WTC announced), but also when there are visible signs at the site of 2 WTC itself of the start of above ground construction (similar to the Oculus in 2013/2014 and the PAC in 2018/2019).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Well, for one thing, it will be built because Silverstein Properties is legally bound to rebuild it. People often forget that this is Port Authority property that Silverstein leases. He was legally bound to rebuild the Twin Towers, but due to the nature of 9/11, obviously that wasn't the case. But this is still government property that is leased out. It must be rebuilt.
A similar event with the rebuilding of 1 WTC seemed to occur back in 2006, when Larry Silverstein ceded leasing of 1 WTC (then called the Freedom Tower) and the Port Authority oversaw faster construction of the tower:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060503...p-348812c.html

Quote:
Wednesday's deal switches control of leasing the Freedom Tower from Silverstein to the Port Authority, along with a second skyscraper that may change from an office building to apartments. Silverstein, who oversaw design and construction plans for the $2.1 billion Freedom Tower, will still build it, and build and lease three other office towers located closer to a mass transit hub on the site.

David Childs, the Freedom Tower's architect, said he didn't expect the Port Authority's takeover of the building to change the design or delay rebuilding. "They've been looking at all our plans and endorsing it all along," said Childs, who attended Thursday's event.
If history is any guide, once the Port Authority takes over and more actively oversees construction, construction on projects at the WTC site usually speeds up, provided that past projects which were already being worked on and prioritized are complete. Silverstein seems to demand a lot of money and guarantees from potential tenants before proceeding with construction compared to the Port Authority, which slows down construction a lot when his company is the primary party overseeing development of a property on the WTC site imo.

Last edited by worldtrade2021; Apr 2, 2022 at 8:41 PM.
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  #5768  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2022, 7:51 PM
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^ I’m not gonna read all of that. Facts just remain facts. Yes, tenants have been moving to the Hudson Yards. The Hudson Yards is itself an up and coming area of Manhattan, with a lot still to be desired. Yet tenants are willing to move there because it’s still Midtown, which has practical advantages. That’s not to say Downtown doesn’t have any, but Midtown is where most want to be. Ironically, that’s the reason the WTC was built in the first place.

As far as “reports” of tenants signing, until a tenant actually does, they remain just that. Larry Silverstein has built and filled up 3 of the 4 standing WTC towers, and he was the reason the other one got built. So let’s not sit here with the silly notion that Silverstein is the reason Tower 2 remains stalled.
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  #5769  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2022, 8:40 PM
worldtrade2021 worldtrade2021 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
^ I’m not gonna read all of that. Facts just remain facts. Yes, tenants have been moving to the Hudson Yards. The Hudson Yards is itself an up and coming area of Manhattan, with a lot still to be desired. Yet tenants are willing to move there because it’s still Midtown, which has practical advantages. That’s not to say Downtown doesn’t have any, but Midtown is where most want to be. Ironically, that’s the reason the WTC was built in the first place.
Midtown always had advantages but there used to be much more financial, insurance, real estate and legal tenants in Lower Manhattan that would lease a lot of office space compared to the tech, advertising, media and information tenants there now. The latter usually require less office space and less workers.

Quote:
Larry Silverstein has built and filled up 3 of the 4 standing WTC towers, and he was the reason the other one got built. So let’s not sit here with the silly notion that Silverstein is the reason Tower 2 remains stalled.
Silverstein seems unwilling to build 2 WTC until he gets an anchor tenant willing to sign on. He could have built 2 WTC on spec like he has been suggesting since 2019 and the tower could have been well under construction by now, with construction and accompanying increased interest in the property being seen while the economy was better pre pandemic and before the current trend of remote work post pandemic. He's not the sole reason 2 WTC is stalled but his reluctance to build on spec is imo a big factor in 2 WTC construction remaining stalled.
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  #5770  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2022, 9:01 PM
DCReid DCReid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worldtrade2021 View Post
Midtown always had advantages but there used to be much more financial, insurance, real estate and legal tenants in Lower Manhattan that would lease a lot of office space compared to the tech, advertising, media and information tenants there now. The latter usually require less office space and less workers.



Silverstein seems unwilling to build 2 WTC until he gets an anchor tenant willing to sign on. He could have built 2 WTC on spec like he has been suggesting since 2019 and the tower could have been well under construction by now, with construction and accompanying increased interest in the property being seen while the economy was better pre pandemic and before the current trend of remote work post pandemic. He's not the sole reason 2 WTC is stalled but his reluctance to build on spec is imo a big factor in 2 WTC construction remaining stalled.
The small slimmer of hope may be to secure a large or several midsized health care or non-profit organizations that would be more sensitive to rental prices than financial, legal and real estate companies are right now. Perhaps a large HMO or a international non-profit foundation may be willing to lease at the lower downtown rates. They would get a newer space for a reasonable rate compared with old, probably outdated spaces in midtown.
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  #5771  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2022, 9:43 PM
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News of refinancing of 7 WTC as per https://www.commercialsearch.com/new...nds-458m-refi/

Additionally there is an update on the percentage leased of the current WTC towers from Enterprise1701 on New York YIMBY forums

1wtc: 95% leased
3wtc: ~84% leased
4wtc 99% leased
7wtc: 97% leased

If these figures are right, 3 WTC having a less than 90% portion leased might be holding up more attention on getting started on construction at 2 WTC. When 3 WTC reaches at least 90% lease rate could be another milestone where Silverstein Properties becomes more determined to build 2 WTC sooner than later.


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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
The small slimmer of hope may be to secure a large or several midsized health care or non-profit organizations that would be more sensitive to rental prices than financial, legal and real estate companies are right now. Perhaps a large HMO or a international non-profit foundation may be willing to lease at the lower downtown rates. They would get a newer space for a reasonable rate compared with old, probably outdated spaces in midtown.
That is an interesting idea. It appears such a health care organization has come to 4 WTC:

https://commercialobserver.com/2022/...-clinic-lease/
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301509202.html

Higher vacancy of older office spaces in Lower Manhattan and even Midtown Manhattan post coronavirus pandemic might counterintuitively put new office spaces like those at the WTC at an advantage, even as overall vacancy rates remain high relative to pre coronavirus pandemic.
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  #5772  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2022, 11:58 PM
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Any estimate of how many employees work at the WTC complex? Including those who still may be working remotely due to COVID-19.
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  #5773  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2022, 4:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skcr View Post

original photo from instagram: wtc
Certainly better than the SLOPPY stacked boxes (lofts-like? <eye roll>) BIG was trying to besmirch the site with; almost anything else is better than that slop. The implementation of outdoor space is very functional and looks nice as it allows the tower to taper or shift from the usual mundane rectilinearity.

However, as per usual for frugal NYC developers the ilk of Silverstein, the top finishing is very lazy.... with some motivation and imagination you can actually keep the diamond elements of the original design which were supposed to slope in reverence to the significance of the memorial site.
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Slightly off model, but once again shows this a fitting piece of the puzzle, central of the "big three"...

dplucinik


Doubt any politician will provide Low-End-Larry Silverstein any motivation, but it is worth noting that there is a point of departure from the original intention of the towers design as it related to the rest of the site.

Another day in the disappointing life of a NYC architecture enthusiast.

Last edited by TREPYE; Apr 12, 2022 at 5:42 PM.
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  #5774  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by worldtrade2021 View Post
Silverstein seems unwilling to build 2 WTC until he gets an anchor tenant willing to sign on.
You know how that works, right?
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  #5775  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 12:24 AM
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From some recent 5 WTC reading, it does seem like some hotel use may be back on the table. That was in the original plan, then was scrapped. The original WTC had it's own hotel too, so it could work here.










The LMDC meets again tomorrow to finalize plans for Tower 5. Again, some of their material seems to suggests mixed-use at Tower 2, as was originally planned. Just another possibility.



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  #5776  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 3:43 PM
worldtrade2021 worldtrade2021 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
You know how that works, right?
Yes, I was trying to say that despite Silverstein saying repeatedly how 2 WTC might be built on spec, Silverstein seems unwilling to build on spec.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The LMDC meets again tomorrow to finalize plans for Tower 5. Again, some of their material seems to suggests mixed-use at Tower 2, as was originally planned. Just another possibility.



This is good news concerning both 5 WTC and the possibility of construction resuming faster on 2 WTC. As some suggested earlier in this thread, they should probably be a hotel in 2 WTC that serves as a replacement for the original 3 WTC Marriot Hotel in a way (complete with a similar combination of restaurants like Tall Ships Bar & Grill and Greenhouse Cafe).

That way there will not only be hotels near the WTC site but on the WTC site itself, just like there was pre 9/11, and it will be a good way to pay homage to the amenities included in 3 WTC pre 9/11.

Last edited by worldtrade2021; Apr 20, 2022 at 4:37 PM.
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  #5777  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 4:40 PM
JMKeynes JMKeynes is offline
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If the office space is down to 2.2m sf, a 500k sf commitment by an anchor should be enough to get this started.
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  #5778  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 5:45 PM
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Yes, I was trying to say that despite Silverstein saying repeatedly how 2 WTC might be built on spec, Silverstein seems unwilling to build on spec.
.

You still don’t get it. There’s a reason you don’t see office towers popping up everywhere being built on spec, let alone a nearly 3 msf one. Look around! It doesn’t happen, and the last time something like that did happen was the 50 years ago when the original complex was built. That was thanks to the state, and it still took a couple of decades to fill. Tell me how 3 Hudson, a much smaller tower, is going.

So, unless you’ve got some financing to get this baby started again, give it a rest. You’re not the only one who wants to see a completed WTC.
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  #5779  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 5:52 PM
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It doesn't matter what Larry tells the press.

Nobody is crazy enough to build a 2.2 million square foot tower on spec.

Not in America, anyway.
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  #5780  
Old Posted Apr 20, 2022, 5:56 PM
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It doesn't matter what Larry tells the press.

Nobody is crazy enough to build a 2.2 million square foot tower on spec.

Not in America, anyway.
And this is a 2.8 msf tower. You could lease 600,000 sf, and still be left with over 2 m.
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