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  #201  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 3:13 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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Boston, 1980

Irish 150,971 26.8%
Italian 68,962 12.2%
English 60,248 10.7%

Boston SCSA, 1980

Irish 1,053,017 30.5%
English 697,328 20.2%
Italian 535,183 15.5%

61% of Irish in Boston proper and 47% of Irish in the metro area were solely Irish. 70% of Italians in Boston proper and 61% of Italians in the metro area were solely Italian.
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  #202  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 3:34 AM
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Philadelphia, 1980

Irish 304,523 18%
German 222,413 13.2%
Italian 181,994 10.8%
English 131,621 7.8%

Philadelphia SCSA, 1980

Irish 1,275,839 23%
German 1,223,613 22.1%
English 950,599 17.1%
Italian 710,067 12.8%

40% of Irish in Philadelphia and 32% of Irish in the metro area were solely Irish. 73% of Italians in Philadelphia and 60% of Italians in the metro area were solely Italian.
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  #203  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 4:23 AM
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Chicago, 1980

German 307,712 10.2%
Polish 301,551 10%
Irish 277,707 9.2%
Italian 138,396 4.6%
English 136,551 4.5%

Chicago SCSA, 1980

German 1,752,557 22.3%
Irish 1,239,328 15.7%
Polish 869,756 11.1%
English 846,212 10.8%
Italian 548,430 7%

37% of Germans in Chicago and 32% in Germans in the metro were solely German.

38% of Irish in Chicago and 26% of Irish in the metro were solely Irish.

62% of Italians in Chicago and 52% of Italians in the metro were solely Italian.

68% of Poles in Chicago and 54% of Poles in the metro were solely Polish.
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  #204  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Let's start with NYC...

NYC (1980)

Italian 1,005,304 14.2%
Irish 647,733 9.2%
German 453,898 6.4%
English 306,255 4.3%


New York SCSA

Italian 2,906,766 18%
Irish 2,438,656 15.1%
German 1,988,343 12.3%
English 1,283,498 8%


80% of Italians in NYC and 71% in the metro area were solely Italian. 49% of Irish in NYC and 39% in the metro area were solely Irish.
Incredible numbers. I guess the Baby Boomers helped raise the Italian and Irish numbers by 300-400K in the 80s and 90s. Now the Greatest Generation has all but passed on, along with a good amount of the Silent Generation. Meanwhile, there are more ethnic groups to marry into and Millennials aren't having kids.
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  #205  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:01 PM
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80% of Italians in NYC and 71% in the metro area were solely Italian. 49% of Irish in NYC and 39% in the metro area were solely Irish.
I am really surprised by the high % of solely Italian/ Irish. I would have thought they would be much lower considering generations of mixing.
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  #206  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:02 PM
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There's a geographic shift too, that comes with more assimilation. 57% of Italian Americans lived in the Northeast in 1980. Now it's "only" 40%.
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  #207  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:05 PM
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From the 2021 ACS (region where plurality live in italics):

German ancestry

Northeast 6,383,529
Midwest 15,961,078
South 11,578,159
West 8,297,414

English ancestry

Northeast 4,470,376
Midwest 6,597,026
South 13,017,354
West 7,740,315

Irish ancestry

Northeast 7,651,157
Midwest 7,535,454
South 10,354,771
West 5,954,515

Italian ancestry

Northeast 6,513,333
Midwest 2,665,795
South 4,011,238
West 2,756,772
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  #208  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:10 PM
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It seems that while Philadelphia has essentially always had a larger share of Irish than NYC at both the municipal and metro levels, the Irish in NYC have assimilated less.
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  #209  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:19 PM
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It seems that while Philadelphia has essentially always had a larger share of Irish than NYC at both the municipal and metro levels, the Irish in NYC have assimilated less.
NYC continued to attract significant numbers of Irish immigrants in the 20th century. There's an Irish immigrant pocket in the North Bronx and Yonkers for example.
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  #210  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:24 PM
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Right, overall, NYC is less Irish, but NYC also has more recent immigration. I believe the Woodlawn area, which is roughly half in the Bronx, and half in Yonkers, is the only real immigrant Irish neighborhood in the U.S. Thirty years ago, there was actually a pretty big immigrant Irish geography, from roughly Fordham Road in the Bronx through Yonkers, but the Irish presence shrunk to only the northernmost parts. Bangladeshis and Hispanics replaced Irish in the remainder.

There are still Irish immigration centers in Woodlawn and in Woodside, Queens, but in both cases, I bet they're serving immigrants in general these days. Woodlawn still gets a few, but I think the Woodside immigration petered out following the Irish economic boom.
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  #211  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:27 PM
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Born in Ireland, 2021 ACS

New York 29,038
Boston 11,273
Chicago 7,329
Philadelphia 3,026

Born in Italy, 2021 ACS

New York 85,829
Chicago 15,767
Boston 13,752
Philadelphia 11,700
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  #212  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I am really surprised by the high % of solely Italian/ Irish. I would have thought they would be much lower considering generations of mixing.
Same. But I also think that in those days mid 1800s to early 1900s, keeping within your kin was not only much more common but also encouraged. Further, the number of first- and second-generation Irish and Italian Americans, along with far fewer ethnic/racial groups to marry into, meant that high percentages of "ethnic purity" were likely.

Today, "assimilation" through the lens of miscegenation typically occurs with the second generation to be born in the new country. But back then, that social integration was probably delayed by an extra generation or two. Specifically in NYC, the "options" for a long time where Irish, Italian, Jewish, German, and English. From an Irish perspective, the Catholic/Protestant cultural division and the far fewer numbers of more-assimilated German and English were barriers to miscegenation; Italians and (obviously) Jews were seen as very different.
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  #213  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 10:45 PM
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I am really surprised by the high % of solely Italian/ Irish. I would have thought they would be much lower considering generations of mixing.
In 1980 Italians were still fairly close to the immigrant experience. The election of Mario Cuomo as governor of NY was considered a major breakthrough. He was the son of Italian immigrants and he grew up in an Italian-speaking household.

And if most second generation Italians produce offspring with other Italians (as most would have grown up in very Italian American communities), then you have a third generation that's also "single ancestry." The third generation is obviously going to start mixing, but it takes time for the mixed population to show up in the multiple ancestry count.

Was there a large number of adult fourth generation Italian Americans in 1980? I doubt it.
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  #214  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 11:02 PM
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I'll give the examples of the Cuomo family and the Sopranos.

Mario Cuomo is born in 1932. He marries Matilda Cuomo, also a second generation Italian American who he met in college. Andrew Cuomo is born in 1957. All four of his grandparents were born in Italy. Andrew marries into the Kennedy family and they have children in the 1990s. The "multiple Italian" population doesn't emerge until the fourth generation.

Tony and Carmela Soprano are presumably born around 1960. They're third generation, 100% Italian American. So they produce a purely Italian fourth generation. But the question of assimilation is a big part of the show. I doubt either Meadow or Anthony Jr. go on to marry 100% Italian Americans. So in this case there's no "multiple Italians" until the fifth generation.

Last edited by Docere; Apr 3, 2023 at 2:12 AM.
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  #215  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
In 1980 Italians were still fairly close to the immigrant experience. The election of Mario Cuomo as governor of NY was considered a major breakthrough. He was the son of Italian immigrants and he grew up in an Italian-speaking household.

And if most second generation Italians produce offspring with other Italians (as most would have grown up in very Italian American communities), then you have a third generation that's also "single ancestry." The third generation is obviously going to start mixing, but it takes time for the mixed population to show up in the multiple ancestry count.

Was there a large number of adult fourth generation Italian Americans in 1980? I doubt it.
I grew up in a very Italian area (I'm 1/4 myself...grandfather from there) and a lot of my friends and peers were of Italian descent but by the time our generation (GenX) came along, most of us had a non-Italian parent. Now our generation has had kids (and grandkids) increasingly with non-Italians which is why I am so surprised there is still a high % of full Italian. Especially if you take into account metro versus city proper.
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  #216  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2023, 11:17 PM
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Born in Italy, 2021 ACS

New York 85,829
Chicago 15,767
Boston 13,752
Philadelphia 11,700
It's clear that although they now maintain similar percentages of Italian ancestry at the CSA level, NYC is orders of magnitude more Italian than Boston and Philly. NYC is 2.75 times the size of Boston and over three times the size of Philly. Not only that, Italian ancestry is the clear-cut #1 ethnic group and either the most or second most reported European ethnic group in every county that has a white majority by a comfortable margin.
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  #217  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
I grew up in a very Italian area (I'm 1/4 myself...grandfather from there) and a lot of my friends and peers were of Italian descent but by the time our generation (GenX) came along, most of us had a non-Italian parent. Now our generation has had kids (and grandkids) increasingly with non-Italians which is why I am so surprised there is still a high % of full Italian. Especially if you take into account metro versus city proper.
Upstate NY didn't get the late Italian migration in the postwar decades. So Upstate is probably a generation or two "ahead" of the metro-area assimilation. I doubt there are very many Syracuse Italian-American grannies or even great grannies who have limited English these days. Probably as late as the 1980's, you had some of this, bc the prewar generation was still around.
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  #218  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 1:05 AM
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A majority of Italian Americans in 1980 were still single ancestry (56%).

36% of Italian Americans in 2021 were Italian single ancestry.

Obviously it's dropped significantly in the last 40 years as the immigrant and second generations have passed on.

Last edited by Docere; Apr 3, 2023 at 4:47 PM.
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  #219  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2023, 1:40 AM
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NYC would be more unmixed because of 1) the sheer size of the Italian American population, and 2) a sizeable post-war cohort which is 1st/2nd/3rd generation as opposed to 3rd/4th/5th.
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  #220  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2023, 7:42 PM
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According to statisticalatlas, 12% of the population of Woodlawn (in the North Bronx) was born in Ireland. It's more akin to Kilburn (in NW London) than to say, South Boston.

Lincoln Park, Yonkers is 7% Irish-born.
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