CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[twister244]

Originally Posted by Chicagoguy

Cathay Pacific To Return To Chicago With Airbus A350-1000
Cathay Pacific is returning to Chicago O'Hare International Airport after a three-year absence, signaling a major step forward for the airline as it continues to recover.

“ From October 3, Cathay Pacific will fly three times weekly to Chicago, deploying its Airbus A350-1000s on the 7,793-mile route. Flights will operate on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays. The flight from Hong Kong will operate as CX806, while the flight from Chicago will be CX807. CX806 will depart Hong Kong International Airport at 12:30 and arrive in Chicago at 14:25. CX807 will leave Chicago at 16:05 and land in Hong Kong at 20:45 the following day.”

https://simpleflying.com/cathay-paci...bus-a350-1000/

Nice! Great to see a long-route returning from pre-Covid days.

In other news - Midway is getting a..... Lounge?

https://www.airliners.net/forum/view...c44&start=1150

I don't fly out of Midway, but that's cool there will be an option for flyers now. Fun note - It will be accessible to those who have a Priority Pass.

[kbud]

Two interesting things happened to me last week at O’Hare.

1) I spoke to the British Airways lounge desk agent.  She shared with me that British Airways is working with American Airlines to move their departure operation to T3.  Their hope is to have this complete when they begin their third daily nonstop from ORD to LHR. If this is accurate, it would mean the end of the A380 service to O’Hare by BA.. Thoughts? Would they just use American’s clubs? Would they have any interest in building out a small first class lounge at the end of T3 by K19 where American once had an int’l first class club?
2) I was able to enter T5 security with only my American Airlines boarding pass to Nashville which left from T3.  This was great for me as I’m rarely in the departure side of T5 as I’m you usually just arriving on international flights at T5.  I was able to see firsthand the expansion.

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by kbud

I spoke to the British Airways lounge desk agent.  She shared with me that British Airways is working with American Airlines to move their departure operation to T3.  Their hope is to have this complete when they begin their third daily nonstop from ORD to LHR. If this is accurate, it would mean the end of the A380 service to O’Hare by BA.. Thoughts? Would they just use American’s clubs? Would they have any interest in building out a small first class lounge at the end of T3 by K19 where American once had an int’l first class club?

I wonder if there's any change that Emirates or another airline would use the A380 gate at T5 if BA no longer uses it. Does Chicago not get much international traffic compared to other US airports. I find it surprising that cities like Boston, DC, and San Francisco have more A380 service than Chicago.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

I wonder if there's any change that Emirates or another airline would use the A380 gate at T5 if BA no longer uses it. Does Chicago not get much international traffic compared to other US airports. I find it surprising that cities like Boston, DC, and San Francisco have more A380 service than Chicago.

Emirates would be a great replacement... But there are other airlines that fly the A380. Qatar Airways has a great 380 product, along with Etihad Airways, Korean Air, Qantas, and Singapore.

Honestly, I would prefer to see Qantas or Singapore break into ORD with an A380 as opposed to Emirates since they are already here.

[kbud]

There was supposed to be an additional A380 capable gate at T5 with the expansion that just completed. The only airline that realistically could send an A380 to ORD would be Emirates. Qatar stopped their 2nd ORD flight awhile ago now and I don’t believe they fly the A380 to anywhere in NA. The same goes with Etihad. It’s way too much airplane for Korean, and it doesn't have the range for Qantas and way too much plane too. I guess Lufthansa could but T1 isn’t equipped for the A380.

Now this might be a pipe dream, but using an aerial view of ORD it appears to me that K16 could be configured to handle the A380. i took the footprint of the T5 A380 gate and dropped it on K16. Obviously a very crude approach...

I was excited by the news that British Airways may be planning to move to T3. The K/H concourses can handle all the BA planes with the exception of the A380. I would imagine the A35K can fit at gates that can accommodate the 77W. K19 handles the 77W, but can K12 and K16 accommodate the 77W? But come to think of it, I wonder which gates can handle the 78X? I believe the gates below are the ones in H/K that can handle wide bodies. Feel free to correct me or add to it.
- K19:788/789/772/77W/A330/A346
- K16:788/789/772/A330/A346
- K15: 788/789/772
- K13: 788/789/772
- K12: 788/789/772
- K9: 788/789/772
- K5: ?
- H15:788/789/772

[Chicagoguy]

LOT Polish Airlines Opening Chicago Lounge In 2024

“ LOT Polish Airlines has announced plans to open a lounge at Chicago O’Hare Airport (ORD) in the second half of 2024. The lounge will be located in Terminal 5, which is the airport’s primary international terminal. The lounge is expected to be 617 square meters (6,642 square feet) and should feature modern design, as well as floor-to-ceiling windows.

This will be LOT’s first lounge outside of Poland. Chicago is a logical airport for such a lounge, since it’s the carrier’s largest outstation — LOT has service to both Krakow (KRK) and Warsaw (WAW) out of Chicago, with the latter route typically having two daily frequencies.“

https://onemileatatime.com/news/lot-...ounge-chicago/

[jonesrmj]

Originally Posted by Chicagoguy

LOT Polish Airlines Opening Chicago Lounge In 2024

“ LOT Polish Airlines has announced plans to open a lounge at Chicago O’Hare Airport (ORD) in the second half of 2024. The lounge will be located in Terminal 5, which is the airport’s primary international terminal. The lounge is expected to be 617 square meters (6,642 square feet) and should feature modern design, as well as floor-to-ceiling windows.

This will be LOT’s first lounge outside of Poland. Chicago is a logical airport for such a lounge, since it’s the carrier’s largest outstation — LOT has service to both Krakow (KRK) and Warsaw (WAW) out of Chicago, with the latter route typically having two daily frequencies.“

https://onemileatatime.com/news/lot-...ounge-chicago/

Interesting, I would've thought they would've waited for the Global Terminal to be completed and then open a lounge there since they are part of the Star Alliance which will move to the Global Terminal when it completes.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

Interesting, I would've thought they would've waited for the Global Terminal to be completed and then open a lounge there since they are part of the Star Alliance which will move to the Global Terminal when it completes.

I'm kinda surprised as well....... I would imagine any OW/SA members to wait until OGT is complete to add any new lounges, unless they are ok with spending money on a lounge they only plan on using for 5-10 years.

[kbud]

I am not totally surprised as the revamped T2 is probably 7 years away from being done, and with SAS leaving Star, this is probably mandatory for Star Members beyond just LOT. In the renderings I saw it shows it has windows to the airfield. I don't know where this will be located.
- Is there a similar space opposite of the Delta Lounge between M17 and M18? The Delta lounge is over 20K sq. feet and the article says that the LOT lounge will be just over 6K sq. feet.
- Per my earlier post, there is a chance that British Airways is moving to T3 which would open up their lounge space at ORD too.
- Many airline publications rate Swissport's T5 lounge as the worst airline lounge in the US and Emirates, Etihad, and others use it.
- Part of the justification of the expanded T5 was that it did not have enough lounge space and that it would house an additional two lounges. I guess that would be Delta and LOT. The Air France lounge is now gone and those passengers all use the Delta lounge so I don't know if that counts as "additional."
- I would anticipate that: 1) This new LOT lounge houses LOT and other T5 Star Airlines. 2) Another lounge being announced that would house the One World T5 carriers if BA is truly going to T3. I can't imagine Cathay using the Swissport lounge. This lounge could include Finnair, Qatar, Cathay, Royal Jordanian, Aer Lingus, etc.
- Additional questions/thoughts: 1) Would Emirates ever have their own lounge? They do in other US stations (i.e. - Boston) and the SAS lounge would probably cease and SAS would use the Delta Lounge. 2) What about Turkish? They have two daily ORD flights and they have their own lounge in other US stations (Miami and Washington). 3) How about Etihad?

[lakeshoredrive]

flew out and arrived back at midway this weekend. it's still a sh***y airport lol but the new TSA area is pretty nice and helped make going through it fairly quickly

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by jonesrmj

Interesting, I would've thought they would've waited for the Global Terminal to be completed and then open a lounge there since they are part of the Star Alliance which will move to the Global Terminal when it completes.

Considering the OGT is already delayed by years I think LOT is making a pretty safe bet here. By the time OGT is done that lounge will be outdated and ready for a refresh anyway. It's also unclear whether ALL Star Alliance carriers will fit at the OGT.. and out of all the Star carriers LOT makes the most sense to keep over at T5 given they have an outsized amount of local Chicago traffic instead of connecting. I wonder this if LOT will continue to expand operations at ORD given this new investment. I believe they once served Katowice from Chicago.

[twister244]

ITA coming back to O'Hare next April with service to Rome.

https://businesstravelerusa.com/news...-toronto-2024/

[kbud]

ORD 21 is squarely targeted to replace T2 and offer a new home for United/Star and American/OW international carriers to consolidate operations. When complete all of UA operations at ORD will be much nicer than all of American's operations at ORD. It has been no secret that American has been scaling back ORD domestically and internationally but they have not hinted at all about closing the ORD hub. So if United has a better domestic and international route network at ORD, more frequencies at ORD, better terminal facilities, and a better onboard product then how will American be able to compete at ORD? They are not a LCC.

Does anyone think they'll try to redo T3 or add another satellite concourse to temporarily house their operations while T3 is torn down? I think the only hub for American with worse facilities than ORD is Philadelphia.

[Slooper]

I flew one of the returning hkg > ord cathay flights first week of october. Nice having a china direct.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by kbud

ORD 21 is squarely targeted to replace T2 and offer a new home for United/Star and American/OW international carriers to consolidate operations. When complete all of UA operations at ORD will be much nicer than all of American's operations at ORD. It has been no secret that American has been scaling back ORD domestically and internationally but they have not hinted at all about closing the ORD hub. So if United has a better domestic and international route network at ORD, more frequencies at ORD, better terminal facilities, and a better onboard product then how will American be able to compete at ORD? They are not a LCC.

Does anyone think they'll try to redo T3 or add another satellite concourse to temporarily house their operations while T3 is torn down? I think the only hub for American with worse facilities than ORD is Philadelphia.

I mean...... It's a question of: Is American suffering more broadly which reflects their lack of expansion at O'Hare? Or..... Is this because of the very nature of the expansion?

If you look at the outcome of this expansion, AA isn't getting much here. Yes, they will have some new gates in the OGT for international departures, but it's a terminal that will be shared with Star Alliance and other OW partners. Meanwhile, Delta has a nice comfy home over in T5 where they have a really nice new lounge. Shit, even SouthWest has access to the shiny new wing of T5.

Besides the few gates they will operate out of in the OGT, they are getting the handful of L stinger gates built in 2018, and the few additional ones being squeezed in right now.

If I were AA, I would just maintain current lines and adapt when needed for market conditions. Maybe sometime down the road if they see a need for massive expansion to meet UA, they could try to get in on a new satellite or two West of the new satellites about to be built. In the process, they could put flights over there while T3 is redone to be a beautiful new AA terminal. But that would be a long long long time from now.

The risk I see for AA here is a cycle where Chicago fliers who want to get in on miles/alliance perks will start gravitating away from AA to UA. Shit, I'm one of them..... I have a Chase card, which makes taking advantage of UA miles easy, but even if I didn't have that, I see all of this expansion UA is going to get at O'Hare, and it makes me want to work towards status with them given they have more lounges, and will most likely have even nicer ones once the satellites and OGT is finished.

So.... In the short term, AA probably will do what they need to do to keep a presence and gates, but it's a strategy that could start to become a problem if they don't retain flyers.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by kbud

ORD 21 is squarely targeted to replace T2 and offer a new home for United/Star and American/OW international carriers to consolidate operations. When complete all of UA operations at ORD will be much nicer than all of American's operations at ORD. It has been no secret that American has been scaling back ORD domestically and internationally but they have not hinted at all about closing the ORD hub. So if United has a better domestic and international route network at ORD, more frequencies at ORD, better terminal facilities, and a better onboard product then how will American be able to compete at ORD? They are not a LCC.

Does anyone think they'll try to redo T3 or add another satellite concourse to temporarily house their operations while T3 is torn down? I think the only hub for American with worse facilities than ORD is Philadelphia.

There was an article in Crains last month that talked about some of American's plans at ORD. I see that it never got posted so here are some snippets.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...vice-next-year

American Airlines will dial up O'Hare service next year
By John Pletz

...

American, the second-largest carrier at O’Hare, says it's scheduled to fly 10% more seats in April 2024 than it did during the same month this year. With the launch of daily service from Chicago to Venice next summer, American says that it will have the same number of international destinations as it did before the COVID pandemic.

Vasu Raja, American’s chief commercial officer, told analysts last week during the carrier’s third-quarter earnings call that “we actually see a lot of opportunities to go and grow . . . Philadelphia and Chicago specifically.”

As pandemic-era travel restrictions eased, American focused its resources elsewhere. The Fort Worth, Texas-based carrier is forecast to finish this year with 30% less capacity at O'Hare, based on seats, than it had in 2019, according to aviation-research firm OAG. Chicago-based United, O’Hare’s largest carrier, will have just 8% less capacity this year.

...

“A lot of O’Hare’s business was consultants moving in and out of Chicago, doing day trips and single overnights to the city," Znotins said. "That type of traffic has been the slowest to rebound, and it may never rebound to where it was in 2019. That’s one of the reasons we have O’Hare a little bit slower to recover than the rest of our system.”

Even still, if they're down 30% from 2019 and growing by 10% next year... they're still down a lot. They are citing weak business demand as the cause, which might make some sense? I think pre-COVID American, even though they were smaller than United in terms of total passengers, actually had more O&D passengers than United (those are passengers actually flying to/from Chicago not just connecting through). I would imagine United beats them by that metric now as well.

United apparently didn't want to be left out of the news cycle, so shortly after that story there was another Crain's article about United.

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...tional-airport

United is adding flights, seats to O'Hare this winter
By John Pletz

United Airlines plans to increase its flying in and out of O’Hare International Airport this winter, adding capacity with larger planes and more flights on domestic routes.

The Chicago-based carrier says its domestic capacity will be up 7% at O’Hare from November through March.

Coupled with a planned increase of 10% in the spring by American Airlines, which is the second-largest carrier at O’Hare behind United, it would go a long way toward getting the airport back to pre-pandemic traffic levels.

The economic engine for Chicago has lagged other U.S. airports in recovering from the travel slump brought on by the COVID-19 pandemic. O’Hare’s passenger volume is about 14% below 2019 levels. United is doubling down on leisure travel, but what O'Hare really needs is a recovery in business travel, which has been slow to rebound.

Much of United’s focus this winter is vacation travel, especially to Florida. It’s nearly doubling the amount of seats between Key West and hubs such as O’Hare, Dulles, George Bush Intercontinental and Newark Liberty airports. The airline is adding flights between Chicago, Fort Myers and Miami.

United is flying larger aircraft on many of the routes, such as Chicago and Orlando, where it will use the Boeing 777, its largest aircraft.

[kbud]

So when O’Hare 21 is complete United and American, along with their alliance partners, should be on par for their international facilities at O’Hare. United then will have another satellite which will be brand new to house the majority of their regional flights and some narrowbody flights. The B and C concourses will house everything else. B and C have much nicer facilities than H and K, and I would assume the new satellite will be much better than Americans’s G and L concourses.

I’m an American executive platinum and have been for 8 years and it makes me so frustrated that their facilities are so poor, the frequency options are getting worse from O’Hare every month, the airport and onboard service itself is atrocious, and the international nonstop destinations from O’Hare has been shrinking for a couple of decades. Shame on me for being bought into their frequent flyer program. I need to switch to United.

[k1052]

Originally Posted by kbud

So when O’Hare 21 is complete United and American, along with their alliance partners, should be on par for their international facilities at O’Hare. United then will have another satellite which will be brand new to house the majority of their regional flights and some narrowbody flights. The B and C concourses will house everything else. B and C have much nicer facilities than H and K, and I would assume the new satellite will be much better than Americans’s G and L concourses.

I’m an American executive platinum and have been for 8 years and it makes me so frustrated that their facilities are so poor, the frequency options are getting worse from O’Hare every month, the airport and onboard service itself is atrocious, and the international nonstop destinations from O’Hare has been shrinking for a couple of decades. Shame on me for being bought into their frequent flyer program. I need to switch to United.

AA's priorities are fairly clear and with the decline in biz travel and the many east coast hubs (post US Airways merger) ORD is a less attractive market for them. They can't abandon it but it's not going to be like it was. If I was still Chicago based I regret that I would probably have switched over to UA by now after 15 years as an AA elite.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by kbud

So when O’Hare 21 is complete United and American, along with their alliance partners, should be on par for their international facilities at O’Hare. United then will have another satellite which will be brand new to house the majority of their regional flights and some narrowbody flights. The B and C concourses will house everything else. B and C have much nicer facilities than H and K, and I would assume the new satellite will be much better than Americans’s G and L concourses.

I’m an American executive platinum and have been for 8 years and it makes me so frustrated that their facilities are so poor, the frequency options are getting worse from O’Hare every month, the airport and onboard service itself is atrocious, and the international nonstop destinations from O’Hare has been shrinking for a couple of decades. Shame on me for being bought into their frequent flyer program. I need to switch to United.

I believe there is money in the deal to refurbish both T1 and T3. I'm not sure to what extent though, and T1 certainly has more potential with its high ceilings and unique architecture. It's already improved quite a bit in the past couple years with the new roof/glass facade, new seating areas, bathrooms, and lounge.

The plan was for the number of gates to stay largely the same for each airline. Yea, United gets a fancy new satellite concourse to itself but that's to replace the gates they're losing at T2. American isn't losing anything during the construction so they aren't gaining much either. I don't know for sure but I'd imagine United is paying more for this whole deal too?

[Roy_Batty]

I’m sharing a video I took last month of the new T5 expansion and the older part of the terminal:

https://youtu.be/tls1UNeULDA?feature=shared