WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[DavefromSt.Vital]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I think that people in Winnipeg are just going to have to accept that government money is what gets things moving downtown. Remember, before these agreements were in place there was...uh...*crickets*...yeah.

There is a weight loss for men clinic that is perpetually advertising on the radio in Toronto. Their slogan is "If you could do it alone, you would have done it already". There is some truth in that.

[LilZebra]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

I think slicing the mall in two separate places - Kennedy and Edmonton - effectively puts an end to it being a mall. It'll be like three standalone buildings joined by two outdoor courtyards and an external walkway if I'm reading this correctly. Outward facing retail just adds to this. I can't wait to see the end product. Shutting down that food court is hopefully one of their first things on the list.

I hope the riff raff criminal troublemakers migrate to Garden City Shopping Centre and not to Eaton Place/cityplace or other malls. And yes, because Garden City is part of the "North End" and is already a "failing mall", so who cares really.

[The Jabroni]

I... wow...

This is nice. Of course this won't be the final design, but this will be huge if they actually pull this off.

[The Jabroni]

Originally Posted by LilZebra

I hope the riff raff criminal troublemakers migrate to Garden City Shopping Centre and not to Eaton Place/cityplace or other malls. And yes, because Garden City is part of the "North End" and is already a "failing mall", so who cares really.

Hey, we don't want the riff raff either.

I will personally drop them off to your house and cause you trouble instead.

[lilwayne]

Are u for real?

Garden city mall is one of the nicest and most improved malls in the city... and has been bustling since seafood city opened...

It well ahead of grant park mall snd has nicer interior than st v mall in my opinion..

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by lilwayne

Are u for real?

Garden city mall is one of the nicest and most improved malls in the city... and has been bustling since seafood city opened...

It well ahead of grant park mall snd has nicer interior than st v mall in my opinion..

I agree, Garden City has done a great job adding Seafood City (and a Michael's I believe). The mall itself feels very open and airy; a very pleasant experience.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

I think slicing the mall in two separate places - Kennedy and Edmonton - effectively puts an end to it being a mall. It'll be like three standalone buildings joined by two outdoor courtyards and an external walkway if I'm reading this correctly. Outward facing retail just adds to this. I can't wait to see the end product. Shutting down that food court is hopefully one of their first things on the list.

Totally agree – and I like that. We don't need a giant mall, and we certainly don't need 3 malls. Opening it up will make future development on the Peomenade lots much more attractive and connected to downtown. It will also open up the possibility of turning Emonton/Kennedy into either AT-only or shared streets from Assiniboine up through central park and to exchange.

Pushing skywalk you Portage is also an awesome idea. If people are going to be inside, at least you see them from the street.

[esquire]

Having slept on this, I have some more scattered thoughts about the proposal:

-Portage Place is still going to be a bust, I don't think this renovation will fundamentally change that. If it didn't exist today, no one would be proposing it in either its current or future state. But it will turn it from a civic embarrassment into a decently attractive, reasonably functional complex. And I am grateful for that.

-On one hand the new design is an improvement given that it gets us out of the 1980s, but on the other hand it looks like Portage Place will be a bit smaller and less prominent - at least the parts in between the proposed towers. I kind of like the way it defines the north Portage street wall... now that presence will be shorter and somewhat less impressive.

-It's interesting to see the change in direction for the skywalk system. They started out as simple bridges over streets, then they became more mall like with commercial space along the second floors. Now they're going back to just being simple bridges and corridors again. This could be a good thing if it pushes retail activity back down to ground floors while still letting people get around in a climate controlled environment.

-What does this mean for the existing residential towers behind Portage Place? Does Starlight own those too? Are they going to get renovated?

-On that note, what will Starlight do to prevent the new towers from becoming down at the heels in 25 years the way the Place Promenade towers did?

-Finally, it's more than a little ironic that this big splashy new project is being proposed to fix the sketchy north Portage neighbourhood. It's practically a replay of the 1980s, when Portage Place was first proposed to fix the the sketchy north Portage neighbourhood that existed then. In hindsight, the entire Portage Place project managed to clean up the sketchiness for about seven or eight years before it reverted to its natural state.

[Wpg_Guy]

^The difference today though is there will be over 2000 new rental units to the market by the time this opens, also a huge influx of office workers to the area. We know buildings don’t make or change a neighbourhood, people do.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

Having slept on this, I have some more scattered thoughts about the proposal:

-Portage Place is still going to be a bust, I don't think this renovation will fundamentally change that. If it didn't exist today, no one would be proposing it in either its current or future state. But it will turn it from a civic embarrassment into a decently attractive, reasonably functional complex. And I am grateful for that.

-On one hand the new design is an improvement given that it gets us out of the 1980s, but on the other hand it looks like Portage Place will be a bit smaller and less prominent - at least the parts in between the proposed towers. I kind of like the way it defines the north Portage street wall... now that presence will be shorter and somewhat less impressive.

-It's interesting to see the change in direction for the skywalk system. They started out as simple bridges over streets, then they became more mall like with commercial space along the second floors. Now they're going back to just being simple bridges and corridors again. This could be a good thing if it pushes retail activity back down to ground floors while still letting people get around in a climate controlled environment.

-What does this mean for the existing residential towers behind Portage Place? Does Starlight own those too? Are they going to get renovated?

-On that note, what will Starlight do to prevent the new towers from becoming down at the heels in 25 years the way the Place Promenade towers did?

-Finally, it's more than a little ironic that this big splashy new project is being proposed to fix the sketchy north Portage neighbourhood. It's practically a replay of the 1980s, when Portage Place was first proposed to fix the the sketchy north Portage neighbourhood that existed then. In hindsight, the entire Portage Place project managed to clean up the sketchiness for about seven or eight years before it reverted to its natural state.

I don't see this as a way to fix the area more than a way to try and make the whole complex somewhat viable economically. The good news is that this is a private initiative so they'll have an active interest in making this a successful venture. Only time will tell if this works out. I do think that the injection of the 500 residential units will be important to helping the area feel safer overall but it's still just a drop in the bucket. It's going to take many more of these sort of 20 floor residential projects to actually achieve some critical mass.

The big win for me is the buildout of the pads for residential. The rest is a minor improvement although it's a shame that the mall can't thrive as a mall and the theatre and IMAX etc. That would be a big community amenity.

[bomberjet]

What will the actual mall part look like though? Was there any info on that? The east end will be separated and I resume used differently. Ie: the old mall space, so the corridor, food court, etc filled in and used as office or something else.

Will there actually be a mall in there anymore? Or will it be transformed into something completely different? With the skywalk moving to Portage Ave, it'll be fairly easy to just fill in what used to be the corridor and use it for something else.

For $400 mil, they can do a lot of things. We'll see what happens.

[Winnipegger]

I see a lot of comparisons of Portage Place's original development in the late 1980s to the current proposal, with some saying that it's just going to be a repeat of what happened 30 years ago - a massive investment (this time private instead of public) that will lead to nothing.

I want to remind everyone that there is one key ingredient that makes today's environment different from the environment in the 1980s which I believe significantly increases the odds of success for this project: people.

From 1980 to 1989, Winnipeg grew by around 45,000 people that decade and population growth tapered down quite a bit towards the late 1980s and early 90s, right when Portage Place opened up (1987). Then a recession hit Canada (and Winnipeg) in the early to mid 1990s, and Winnipeg's population growth virtually stagnated, with our population only growing by 13 or 14 thousand people from 1990 to 1999 - Winnipeg's population even shrunk in the late 1990s which is extremely rare for a Canadian city. Things were not good.

But since then, things have changed a lot. Winnipeg grew by over 30,000 people from 2000 to 2009, and we will have grown by almost 100,000 people from 2010 to 2019, which is likely the second largest population growth by decade since Winnipeg's formation in the late 1800s. If Winnipeg's population continue to grows at the current rate (around 10,000 people per year), there's a good chance we will add another 90 to 100 thousand people over the next 10 years.

For both residential and non-residential investment to be successful, having people is the most basic ingredient required. Sure, there are many other factors that determine success but without a growing population, new residential, commercial, or employment space investments mean attracting people from other parts of the city to their detriment, or being unsuccessful in doing so leading to a project's failure.

But with record population growth (and with population growth comes the need for employment space and commercial/recreation space), people need a place to live and work. That's why projects in our downtown core will be more successful now than they were in the 1980s and 1990s - because our population is actually growing, not stagnating. That's why we are seeing record levels of private investment in Winnipeg today compared to 20 years ago - because there is actual demand for it, not because government is trying to stimulate artificial demand in face of a stagnate population.

[Hecate]

This looks more like a suburban big box mall than an exciting downtown destination. It’s honestly crap. But it’s a only a conceptual drawing. This development would not look out of place next to polo park.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I think that people in Winnipeg are just going to have to accept that government money is what gets things moving downtown. Remember, before these agreements were in place there was...uh...*crickets*...yeah.

Obviously it will never happen without government money now -- or not very often, at least -- since everyone will sit around waiting for the next government handout program to start.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Winnipegger

I see a lot of comparisons of Portage Place's original development in the late 1980s to the current proposal, with some saying that it's just going to be a repeat of what happened 30 years ago - a massive investment (this time private instead of public) that will lead to nothing.

I want to remind everyone that there is one key ingredient that makes today's environment different from the environment in the 1980s which I believe significantly increases the odds of success for this project: people.

From 1980 to 1989, Winnipeg grew by around 45,000 people that decade and population growth tapered down quite a bit towards the late 1980s and early 90s, right when Portage Place opened up (1987). Then a recession hit Canada (and Winnipeg) in the early to mid 1990s, and Winnipeg's population growth virtually stagnated, with our population only growing by 13 or 14 thousand people from 1990 to 1999 - Winnipeg's population even shrunk in the late 1990s which is extremely rare for a Canadian city. Things were not good.

But since then, things have changed a lot. Winnipeg grew by over 30,000 people from 2000 to 2009, and we will have grown by almost 100,000 people from 2010 to 2019, which is likely the second largest population growth by decade since Winnipeg's formation in the late 1800s. If Winnipeg's population continue to grows at the current rate (around 10,000 people per year), there's a good chance we will add another 90 to 100 thousand people over the next 10 years.

For both residential and non-residential investment to be successful, having people is the most basic ingredient required. Sure, there are many other factors that determine success but without a growing population, new residential, commercial, or employment space investments mean attracting people from other parts of the city to their detriment, or being unsuccessful in doing so leading to a project's failure.

But with record population growth (and with population growth comes the need for employment space and commercial/recreation space), people need a place to live and work. That's why projects in our downtown core will be more successful now than they were in the 1980s and 1990s - because our population is actually growing, not stagnating. That's why we are seeing record levels of private investment in Winnipeg today compared to 20 years ago - because there is actual demand for it, not because government is trying to stimulate artificial demand in face of a stagnate population.

I appreciate the thoughtful post and I take your point that this project makes more sense than the original Portage Place did, i.e. in retrospect building a big mall downtown at a time when the economy was reeling and the population was stagnant and we were at the absolute peak of the boomer "I hate downtown" mentality was probably doomed to fail.

As you point out, building residential and office space during a time of growth seems likelier to succeed. But one wrench in the spokes of that theory is the fact that downtown Winnipeg faces a particularly daunting social reality. That part won't change when the "new" Portage Place opens its doors. Will Starlight manage to make the north Portage area a place where people don't mind being after dark? I mean, I hope so, but...

[Authentic_City]

Don't forget that the original North Portage redevelopment included hundreds of new units of housing in the buildings behind Portage Place - many more than the 500 units in the present conceptual plan. The thinking back then - like now - is that we need people living, working and playing downtown to reinvigorate North Portage. Unfortunately, it didn't happen then, so I'm not sure what will change now to bring about the positive change. I imagine that most folks will just drive into the underground parkade and go up to their aparments without using the street, like Place Promenade. I appreciate some of the concepts in the new design, like more eyes on the street, etc. But a problem I see is that the elevated walkway system still removes people from the street and discourages people to use the sidewalks. Lively sidewalks are a real key to downtown safety.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by Hecate

This looks more like a suburban big box mall than an exciting downtown destination. It’s honestly crap. But it’s a only a conceptual drawing. This development would not look out of place next to polo park.

comments like this Seriously what would make it look like "exciting downtown" instead of "suburban"? Is it missing neon lights? faux historic look? I'm really really confused by yours and many others that want new downtown development to look more like "downtown". I'm sorry but glass skywalk going all along Portage looks great to me, two new residential towers look great to me. What doesn't look great is pawn shops, loan sharks and rundown convenience stores like what we see on parts of North Main, Sargent, Ellice, etc. Is that what you want?

[bomberjet]

I missed the part where this development is getting public money. Is that happening or?

Someone wants to spend nearly half a billion dollars including the purchase price. But it's still not good enough. My word.

People say bulldoze it and build new. That's basically what they're doing. Changing the function of nearly every space. Bringing store fronts to the street. Building the towers. The very things people have been crying about for literally decades.

Yet it's not good enough. Typical Winnipeg.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I missed the part where this development is getting public money. Is that happening or?

I was wondering the same thing myself, the way some people are getting up in arms over this I was starting to wonder if I missed that part of the announcement.

[BigG]

I realize that this is just the beginning of this exciting new project, to revitalize and re-purpose Portage Place, but I believe the exclamation point would be to have something done to The Bay. Perhaps another residential tower/hotel and mixed-use on the lower levels. To me, it makes perfect sense that the new Portage Place would connect its' western edge to something just as nice, not something old and depressing, looking like it's forgotten.