WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[NewIreland]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I was really hoping they would have turned the bay downtown into a bigger version of Casino Regina but they didn't want to do it. I am not a fan of the current bay proposal as I think it could end up being a much larger thunderbird house but no one was willing to take on that project so we will see how this plays out.

So you complain about the addiction issues downtown and your solution is to introduce more addiction?

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

So you complain about the addiction issues downtown and your solution is to introduce more addiction?

No I think the addictions issue will always be there. Casino Regina has been successful in Regina and I would have like to seen it replicated here. Regina and Winnipeg have almost identical demographics and issues but their downtown is in a far healthier and attractive state to that of Winnipeg's downtown.

[Authentic_City]

Originally Posted by esquire

If you look at our Saskatchewan neighbours, Regina and Moose Jaw, both cities' downtowns get a significant boost from the casino presence. It adds people to the area at all hours and it attracts people to nearby hotels, restaurants, etc.

Here in Winnipeg, we have two massive casinos in total afterthought locations. Other than maybe a couple of hotels near Club Regent, no one really spends time or money in the areas near the casinos. So we get all the downside of having casinos, but without any of the upside in terms of positive effects on the urban environment.

I don't doubt that we need the medical facilities that form this proposal, but something like a casino with associated amenities (hotels and recreation) would have done more for the area.

Interesting idea. But I doubt this would work as well in Winnipeg. I would think Regina and Moose Jaw benefit from the fact that there's only one major casino in the city. Here, we have two. Would you close one and relocate it downtown? Or open a third option? If so, I'm sure most Winnipeggers would complain about the parking downtown and opt to go to the suburban location with acres of free parking.

Also, did the Crystal Casino at Hotel Fort Garry do much to revitalize the area? I think the Fort Garry owners were happy to get rid of it -- I gather due to the clientele it attracted. Let's face it, the folks who patronize Winnipeg's casinos are not high rollers and wealthy tourists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Casino

Lastly, isn't there a small scale gaming centre at the Shark Club, currently?

https://sharkgamingcentre.ca/

If Chipman thought this was a good idea for the area, I'm sure he would have pitched the idea for a larger scale gaming centre at PP.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by NewIreland

So you complain about the addiction issues downtown and your solution is to introduce more addiction?

The addiction is already there. We've had permanent casinos in this city for over 30 years. However, unlike most cities we have the casinos and their downsides while not deriving any upside in terms of positive impact on the downtown area.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Authentic_City

Interesting idea. But I doubt this would work as well in Winnipeg. I would think Regina and Moose Jaw benefit from the fact that there's only one major casino in the city. Here, we have two. Would you close one and relocate it downtown? Or open a third option? If so, I'm sure most Winnipeggers would complain about the parking downtown and opt to go to the suburban location with acres of free parking.

Also, did the Crystal Casino at Hotel Fort Garry do much to revitalize the area? I think the Fort Garry owners were happy to get rid of it -- I gather due to the clientele it attracted. Let's face it, the folks who patronize Winnipeg's casinos are not high rollers and wealth tourists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Casino

Lastly, isn't there a small scale gaming centre at the Shark Club, currently?

https://sharkgamingcentre.ca/

If Chipman thought this was a good idea for the area, I'm sure he would have pitched the idea for a larger scale gaming centre at PP.

The province just sank a pile of money into the two suburban casinos so realistically it won't close them any time soon. But it would have done way more for downtown Winnipeg to have simply had one casino in town, located downtown. The old Crystal Casino was way too small and niche-oriented, But look at Casino Regina... it's big, it's nice, there's nothing trashy about it... it attracts plenty of people to downtown. If they did it our way, they would have a casino way out on Victoria Avenue and most of the casino visitors would never set foot downtown.

Anyway, the point of this isn't to turn this into a casino vs. medical clinic debate. But rather it is to say that there may have been options for Portage Place and downtown in general that could have done more than what this Portage Place super medical clinic and drop-in centre thing will accomplish.

[NewIreland]

...

[Jammon]

Originally Posted by esquire

The province just sank a pile of money into the two suburban casinos so realistically it won't close them any time soon. But it would have done way more for downtown Winnipeg to have simply had one casino in town, located downtown. The old Crystal Casino was way too small and niche-oriented, But look at Casino Regina... it's big, it's nice, there's nothing trashy about it... it attracts plenty of people to downtown. If they did it our way, they would have a casino way out on Victoria Avenue and most of the casino visitors would never set foot downtown.

Anyway, the point of this isn't to turn this into a casino vs. medical clinic debate. But rather it is to say that there may have been options for Portage Place and downtown in general that could have done more than what this Portage Place super medical clinic and drop-in centre thing will accomplish.

This group is so doom and gloom. It's not my ideal project, but literally ANYTHING is better than what Portage Place is now. It will be nice to actually see some new life injected on to Portage Ave.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Jammon

This group is so doom and gloom. It's not my ideal project, but literally ANYTHING is better than what Portage Place is now. It will be nice to actually see some new life injected on to Portage Ave.

If I sound "doom and gloom" it's not because I want Portage Avenue to fail. To the contrary, I want it to succeed. I'm just not confident that the project as proposed will do very much for Portage, especially considering the immense public cost attached to it.

[Jammon]

Originally Posted by esquire

If I sound "doom and gloom" it's not because I want Portage Avenue to fail. To the contrary, I want it to succeed. I'm just not confident that the project as proposed will do very much for Portage, especially considering the immense public cost attached to it.

It's not like the public cost affects us directly. Taxes haven't gone up to support this project and I'm all for getting funding from an incredibly cheap and tight-assed federal government. There's no doubt that the cost will hit us in other ways, but I think this project is fine. I have no problems using public coffers to support this project.

[Sheepish]

Here's an important question that I would like to hear a clear unambiguous answer to...
Besides ridding Portage Ave of a dead retail space, what is the real objective of this project (and 'anything is better than what is there now' is not a legitimate objective)?
What is this project supposed to achieve for Portage Ave specifically and Downtown generally?
I had occasion to drive down Portage Ave to Main St yesterday evening. It was truly depressing. This project alone will not fix this. And turning Portage Ave into a Social Services hub is not the solution.
Our City Planners, the levels of govt and the business community need to come together to address vacancies, vagrancy, and rebuilding street life.
How does the rebuild of PP fit into the puzzle that solves the crisis on Portage ave?

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Sheepish

I had occasion to drive down Portage Ave to Main St yesterday evening. It was truly depressing. This project alone will not fix this. And turning Portage Ave into a Social Services hub is not the solution.

I drove down portage last night also, and yes it is depressing. The amount of trash infront of the Air Canada building was disgusting. I have not seen this in the middle of any Canadian downtown, Specially no city the size of Winnipeg. If people think a drop-in centre is somehow going to improve this situation they are delusional. If we look at other examples across the city it's only going to make things worse. it will draw more homelessl, drug addicts an mentally ill to the area.

[Jammon]

Originally Posted by Luisito

I drove down portage last night also, and yes it is depressing. The amount of trash infront of the Air Canada building was disgusting. I have not seen this in the middle of any Canadian downtown, Specially no city the size of Winnipeg. If people think a drop-in centre is somehow going to improve this situation they are delusional. If we look at other examples across the city it's only going to make things worse. it will draw more homelessl, drug addicts an mentally ill to the area.

They are already there. This mentality is just another form of NIMBY-ism. I heard this living in Unicity when they proposed to build the Darcy Oake Recovery Centre. Everyone was saying "oh, it will bring crime to the area, drug and substance use, blah, blah" and it didn't.

People need to educate themselves about what the social problems are in this city and how they are not being addressed. Having an accessible clinic downtown as one piece is actually a benefit. They are also going to have a RAAM clinic for substance use which is going to help address a lot of the issues in the area- at least it puts the clientele closer to help. The great majority of the people downtown either face some form of mental health issues and/or substance issues. So why not put the services where they are?

This project is not perfect, but it spurs development by creating a space that is potentially safe and integrated for all users. I am downtown all the time. And for the first time the other day, I noticed Cadets and Downtown Biz patrol both in Air Canada Centre interacting with the people there and moving them on. If our services actually did more of this outreach, we wouldn't see the issues that we do currently by allowing people just to sit and panhandle. You have to build relationships with these people in order to effect change. It doesn't happen over night and chasing them out won't work either.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Jammon

They are already there. This mentality is just another form of NIMBY-ism. I heard this living in Unicity when they proposed to build the Darcy Oake Recovery Centre. Everyone was saying "oh, it will bring crime to the area, drug and substance use, blah, blah" and it didn't.

People need to educate themselves about what the social problems are in this city and how they are not being addressed. Having an accessible clinic downtown as one piece is actually a benefit. They are also going to have a RAAM clinic for substance use which is going to help address a lot of the issues in the area- at least it puts the clientele closer to help. The great majority of the people downtown either face some form of mental health issues and/or substance issues. So why not put the services where they are?

This project is not perfect, but it spurs development by creating a space that is potentially safe and integrated for all users. I am downtown all the time. And for the first time the other day, I noticed Cadets and Downtown Biz patrol both in Air Canada Centre interacting with the people there and moving them on. If our services actually did more of this outreach, we wouldn't see the issues that we do currently by allowing people just to sit and panhandle. You have to build relationships with these people in order to effect change. It doesn't happen over night and chasing them out won't work either.

Yes, yes and yes! Exactly!

In anyone is interested , here's a study by McMaster University on the effectiveness of drop-in centres on dealing with a variety of social issues:

https://www.mcmasterforum.org/docs/d...s.pdf?sfvrsn=2

People seem to have forgotten that this development will also provide other healthcare services (e.g. a renal dialysis centre, sports medicine, etc.), an important housing component, food courts, a grocery store and even maintain the PTE for some arts & culture. I'm looking forward to future announcements on the project.

[Sheepish]

I have a pretty clear idea of the problems - and I have seen how they progressed from Beer halls on Main street, to sniff, lysol, hair spray and other cocktails to the state of affairs now. Anyone who doesn't think the problem has gotten worse (both pre and post pandemic), and is indeed critical, is fooling themselves.
I'm not saying NO to this project, I just want a clear statement from the proponents defining what role it will play in solving the problems.
You can throw out NIMBYism but the fact is when spaces like Air Canada Park and bus shelters are out of bounds for citizens, and business shut down because there are no customers, something actually has to change.

Additional thought - the announcement from the Mayor's office last week with the appointment to address homelessness, may be the most important step forward.

[Luisito]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Jammon

They are already there. This mentality is just another form of NIMBY-ism.

They are already there, so lets just invite more of them. Lets keep downtown the same or make it worse.....The NIMBYism came from the so called "community activist" that are basically against any sort of positive change and come out with the same old tired accusations. Again, their complaint was about losing a gathering space. Well that's exactly what we're going to get. I actually want to see change down there.

People need to educate themselves about what the social problems are in this city and how they are not being addressed. Having an accessible clinic downtown as one piece is actually a benefit. They are also going to have a RAAM clinic for substance use which is going to help address a lot of the issues in the area- at least it puts the clientele closer to help. The great majority of the people downtown either face some form of mental health issues and/or substance issues. So why not put the services where they are?

Right on portage? This is basically throwing our hands in the air and saying who cares if we convert it to another Main and Higgins. I live in this city and know what the problems are very well.

This project is not perfect, but it spurs development by creating a space that is potentially safe and integrated for all users. I am downtown all the time. And for the first time the other day, I noticed Cadets and Downtown Biz patrol both in Air Canada Centre interacting with the people there and moving them on. If our services actually did more of this outreach, we wouldn't see the issues that we do currently by allowing people just to sit and panhandle. You have to build relationships with these people in order to effect change. It doesn't happen over night and chasing them out won't work either.

A drop in centre spurs development? Cadets can only do so much. Air Canada centre is not a drop in centre. The drop in centre basically gaurantees the Cadets will not be able to move anyone. I don't think this is the adequeate place for helping them. Specially if we want people to invest in downtown and bring people back to the area. No one is against drop in centres, it just a very bad place to put one. Specially considering Winnipegs terrible record with other spaces that are meant to help people. We keep making the same mistake over and over again.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by Sheepish

I have a pretty clear idea of the problems - and I have seen how they progressed from Beer halls on Main street, to sniff, lysol, hair spray and other cocktails to the state of affairs now. Anyone who doesn't think the problem has gotten worse (both pre and post pandemic), and is indeed critical, is fooling themselves.
I'm not saying NO to this project, I just want a clear statement from the proponents defining what role it will play in solving the problems.
You can throw out NIMBYism but the fact is when spaces like Air Canada Park and bus shelters are out of bounds for citizens, and business shut down because there are no customers, something actually has to change.
.

The executives in charge of this project probably never goto portage place or take their families there, wait for the bus at one of downtowns filthy and broken bus shelters. They don't care if this drop in centre works or not. It is all political pressure and moral posturing. Your absolutely right, downtown has gotten worse. It is naive to think this drop in centre will help anything. It will just bring more and more people to the area looking for service.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Luisito

This is not improving or changing things downtow, this is keeping the status quo. Nice shiny new buildings but no real change on the ground. The only reason these drop in centres are being put in at this location is because "community activist" were complaining about losing a "gathering place". it's pure politics and now tax payers will have to pay for it.

The issues that are getting growing attention in downtown Winnipeg have existed there longer than Portage Place. It is why there is no longer a Liquor Mart at Main and Market. And Portage Place itself was originally built to try and push some of these issues out of downtown.

Originally Posted by Luisito

I have seen with my own eyes the last few remaining businessess leave that block on Main between logan and higgins. Look at thunder bird house on Main and higgins, its a disaster. Why are we hell bent on doing the same to the rest of downtown?

In case you have never been to Portage Place the issues this plan is trying to address have long been there. One of my personal scariest encounters happened in Portage Place in the early 90s. The challenge with Thunderbird House and a lot of the North Main projects is unlike the plan for Portage Place they were simply designed to displace the problems rather than trying to address the deeper issues.

"If only we could close down all the cheap beverage rooms on North Main the problem would go away".

The deeper issue there is yes reducing alcohol sales on North Main sort of "fixed" that issue but there people frequenting those establishments didn't go away, instead they found different beverage rooms, many of which were in downtown Winnipeg.

Originally Posted by pspeid

The fact remains, there is currently no other realistic plan for Portage Place, other than boarding it up or tearing it down. The issues of homelessness, mental and physical health and addiction issues that are visible downtown also need to be addressed.

Said it earlier and I will say it again. THE ISSSUES WITH HOMELESSNESS, MENTAL HEALTH, ADDICTION AND PHYSICAL HEALTH IN DOWNTOWN WINNIPEG PREDATE THE CONSTRUCTION OF PORTAGE PLACE.

Needed to bold and all caps that as people just do not get it. I guess if you never spend any time downtown you can pretend to not see the issues.

Originally Posted by Luisito

Great, let's make this personal as usual. So TSNE are mental health and addiction experts now?

Since the return of the Jets to Winnipeg in 2011 TNSE has been very active in the mental health space with Project 11. While it is focused more on youth than adults the full team at THSE has spent over a decade working with mental health professionals and learning from them.

Also if you think that addiction never happens in pro sports I got something to tell you. Because of the employer to employee relationship there it is something that is more quietly handled but TNSE also knows about substance abuse and addiction.

While neither makes TNSE directly "experts" in the field it gives them high level of credibility when they say they want to help the community with this and they are willing to put their own funds behind it.

Originally Posted by NewIreland

So you think that the owners/tenants of Glasshouse, 288 Colony, TNS, Smith Steet Lofts, Heritage Landing, 390 on the River, Medical Arts (all of which have come online in the past few years) plus the future tenants of HBC, 300 Main, RNSQR, 138 Portage, 127 Bannatyne, Market Square, PLUS the new tower planned for the site can't support a grocery store???

The short answer here is the changing dynamics of grocery retailing in Canada is less about if there is a population base now that could have supported a grocery store downtown 10+ years ago than it is about the dynamic that grocery retailing in Canada is in a transition mode from "grocery stores" to "fulfilment center for online orders with no public access". As I have covered in many posts margins on groceries are extremely small and theft of higher value items is very high it more at-risk neighborhoods like downtown Winnipeg. Add in the amount of consolidation that has happened in the space and the big players (Superstore/No Frills, Sobeys/Safeway/FreshCo, Walmart) aren't setting up a location in downtown likely every. This means a downtown grocery store would fall to either a full independent or need someone like Co-op to open the store.

And for all the "online groceries won't happen" people, if your choice is to pay a low price online delivered to your door or say double that price for an in-store shopping experience 20 minutes away from your home let's be realistic about which one the majority of people are going to pick. And yes there will be a super premium pricing for the in store experience to both limit the number of customers to a manageable level and to steer people to the online experience where shrink is a significantly lower cost of business.

Originally Posted by Luisito

The executives in charge of this project probably never goto portage place or take their families there, wait for the bus at one of downtowns filthy and broken bus shelters. They don't care if this drop in centre works or not. It is all political pressure and moral posturing. Your absolutely right, downtown has gotten worse. It is naive to think this drop in centre will help anything. It will just bring more and more people to the area looking for service.

Mark Chipman, the top person at TNSE, has very publicly interacted with the exact sort of clients the new Portage Place proposal is meant to help. As a reference see this link

I am sure Mark and his other executives may not be day to day in running the Portage Place plans but they are not going to be anywhere near as removed from the project as you are trying to suggest. And it isn't going to be some glamorous staged PR event but I am sure they will keep an eye on things and occasionally visit on the down-low as this is something truly important to the organization, not just because of CLC operations but because they understand the larger impact to the community as a whole.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

^There was a liquor mart at Market and Main? I don't remember that.

[Sheepish]

I think that TNSE has credibility...plus they have critical investments to protect. I have no doubt they have a sensitivity to the problems and genuinely want to help.
I am curious though, if what is happening at Air Canada park moved or expanded to True North Square, how would TNSE respond. I doubt they would allow it to fester.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg

^There was a liquor mart at Market and Main? I don't remember that.

Yes..I forgot about that one. I was a kid when it came down. I Believe it was near where The Pantages theatre expanded. Very close to where Silverman jewelers was.