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  #121  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2021, 11:11 PM
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I mean, urban freight's being electrified kinda makes sense, since you would want to limit pollution and noise in a populated area.

I guess I meant, no one (or at least not me) is advocating electrifying freight rail in, say, rural Montana.
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  #122  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2021, 11:53 PM
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For reducing emissions then maybe battery locomotives would make more sense? Wabtec has a working one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_mpAQ3s_DU

I wonder if it would be possible to construct a battery car that can connect to an electric locomotive through a conduit. They could be hitched to conventional diesel-electric locomotives that have the ability to switch their motor's power source to the battery car.

A siding with room for many battery cars would be built in Barstow. Trains going to the Port of Los Angeles would pick one up so as to run electric only in the LA Basin. Trains leaving LA and heading towards the Midwest would drop off the battery car to be charged and turn on their diesel generators for the long trip across the plains. It's okay if the battery cars take a while to charge while parked on the siding, because there would be several of them to guarantee a "fresh" unit is available. It would be simpler and cheaper than electrifying a lot of miles of trackage in LA proper that wouldn't really be shared with passenger trains ever, like the Harbor Sub or Alameda Corridor.
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  #123  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2021, 11:56 PM
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^ Yeah, that sounds great.
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Last edited by SFBruin; Oct 28, 2021 at 12:28 AM.
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  #124  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 12:01 AM
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Delete.
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Last edited by SFBruin; Oct 28, 2021 at 12:28 AM.
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  #125  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 12:03 AM
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I guess I meant, no one (or at least not me) is advocating electrifying freight rail in, say, rural Montana.
Interesting you mention rural Montana which is pretty hilarious considering the Milwaukee Road ran an over the mountains electrified territory along the route from Chicago to Seattle until the early 1970s. In their infinite wisdom they tore it all out and replaced it with diesels. And then they went bankrupt. Idiots.
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  #126  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 2:53 AM
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Wasn't there chatter about electrifying freight railroads, particularly the lines serving the Ports of LB/LA, in the LA basin and then constructing staging yards in the high desert where locomotives would be swapped for the journey eastward? Did I dream that? It seems like its been quite a while back. Maybe the Tier IV technology advanced to the point where the main concern of CO2 emissions had been satisfied. Even with Tier IV, electric would still be exponentially cleaner.
The problem leaving the LA and LB ports with double stack trains is the vertical clearances of the tunnels getting to the high deserts. They were heightened for double stack containers, but not high enough for both double stack containers and catenary wires being strung above them.
Anyways, the backlog of freight entering and exiting these ports is not the train capacity or the truck capacity on the highways. It's how the ports operate; with double container stack limitations at the port, non automation equipment to please the unions, and union contracts limiting regular and shift pay to 20 hours a day. Time and a half overtime pay required for the remaining 4 hours a day, whether or not they are working less than 8 hours per day and less than 40 hours per week. The backup delays are at the the ports themselves, they are just not keeping up loading and alighting containers to or from the ships.
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  #127  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 3:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Interesting you mention rural Montana which is pretty hilarious considering the Milwaukee Road ran an over the mountains electrified territory along the route from Chicago to Seattle until the early 1970s. In their infinite wisdom they tore it all out and replaced it with diesels. And then they went bankrupt. Idiots.
The saddest story in American railway history besides maybe the failure of the Turboliner. Hope someone brings it back one day! Electrify America all over again!
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  #128  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 1:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Wasn't there chatter about electrifying freight railroads, particularly the lines serving the Ports of LB/LA, in the LA basin and then constructing staging yards in the high desert where locomotives would be swapped for the journey eastward? Did I dream that? It seems like its been quite a while back. Maybe the Tier IV technology advanced to the point where the main concern of CO2 emissions had been satisfied. Even with Tier IV, electric would still be exponentially cleaner.
There are some interesting maps here:
https://www.trains.com/ctr/railroads...ion-proposals/

The Cincinnati Southern Railway (the one built southward to Chattanooga in the 1870s/80s by the City of Cincinnati and still owned by and a major revenue generator for the City of Cincinnati) only has one truly steep hill - and it's immediately south of line's bridge over the Ohio River. So not in the hills/mountains of southern Kentucky and Tennessee, but just 1-2 miles from its namesake's downtown.

This section of the line travels over and through a large mountain bike trail system, and the climbing trains create a huge sonic distraction while mountain biking. They built an observation platform here recently:

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-revi...ar-cincinnati/

The proposal to electrify this line might date back to its pre-modern era, when it had 27 tunnels. They daylighted all but four of them in the 1970s. I have sometimes wondered why they didn't electrify the hill for helper engines, since descending trains could feed electricity to climbing trains.
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  #129  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 2:01 PM
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Its easier to not bother keeping up with the Jones's when the Jones's are 5000 miles away. Was there a single instanve of a mainline railroad electrifying between the 1930's and 1990's?
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  #130  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 2:09 PM
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It's how the ports operate; with double container stack limitations at the port, non automation equipment to please the unions, and union contracts limiting regular and shift pay to 20 hours a day. Time and a half overtime pay required for the remaining 4 hours a day, whether or not they are working less than 8 hours per day and less than 40 hours per week. The backup delays are at the the ports themselves, they are just not keeping up loading and alighting containers to or from the ships.
I don't want to drag this thread sideways but I just want to know where you got this information scapegoating union dockworkers for the pandemic caused backups? I read the news and "this is caused by greedy/lazy unions" is not an explanation I see much... probably for good reason. Can we agree whatever the union work rules are on the ground it seems to have worked just fine before a global pandemic caused an unprecedented spike in goods imported paired with a worldwide labor shortage due to health and safety concerns?
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  #131  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 3:31 PM
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I don't want to drag this thread sideways but I just want to know where you got this information scapegoating union dockworkers for the pandemic caused backups? I read the news and "this is caused by greedy/lazy unions" is not an explanation I see much... probably for good reason. Can we agree whatever the union work rules are on the ground it seems to have worked just fine before a global pandemic caused an unprecedented spike in goods imported paired with a worldwide labor shortage due to health and safety concerns?
LA Port hours of operations
https://www.apmterminals.com/en/los-...-of-operations
Standard Operating Hours
Monday through Thursday
1st Shift: Full Service Gate 07:00-17:00 (Import grounded delivery ends at 16:30)
2nd Shift: Full Service Gate 18:00-03:00 (Import grounded delivery ends at 01:30)
Friday
1st Shift: Full Service Gate 07:00-17:00 (Import grounded delivery ends at 16:30)
2nd Shift: Full Service Gate 18:00-03:00 (Import grounded delivery ends at 01:30)
Saturday & Sunday
Saturday: OPEN 1st Shift, CLOSED 2nd Shift
Sunday: CLOSED

Note: Closed between 3 am and 7 am always. I wonder why?

Long Beach Port hours of operations
https://polb.com/port-info/gate-hours/
Never open on 3rd Shift, mostly closed on weekends.

Do not need a newspaper or other world wide news media to report the facts, the ports do so on their web sites publicly.

The fact remains, neither port is set up for 24 hours 7 days a week operations. And 40% of all container traffic into and out of the USA use these two ports.

24 hours a day, 7 days a week operations is common across many businesses and governmental agencies all across the USA. Hospitals, Firemen, Policemen, electric, gas, and telephone utilities, restaurants, Wallmarts - the list is quite large - that have no problems providing 24/7 services.
But these two ports fail at doing it for whatever reasons.
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  #132  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 3:42 PM
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^ What you just layed out says nothing about your original assertion and my reason for objecting which was laying direct blame on unionized dockworkers for the port backups and lack of 24/7 emergency operation.

If there is blame is should be laid more broadly as every cog in the supply chain operation must be working in unison for such an undertaking, and that is hardly the fault of union wage earners nor is it remotely appropriate to suggest so. Though I'm sure that didnt stop FoxBusiness.

Here's an article from the actual logistics industry:

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/vi...ons-pledge/amp
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  #133  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 3:57 PM
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^ What you just layed out says nothing about your original assertion and my reason for objecting which was laying direct blame on unionized dockworkers for the port backups and lack of 24/7 emergency operation.

If there is blame is should be laid more broadly as every cog in the supply chain operation must be working in unison for such an undertaking, and that is hardly the fault of union wage earners nor is it remotely appropriate to suggest so. Though I'm sure that didnt stop FoxBusiness.

Here's an article from the actual logistics industry:

https://www.freightwaves.com/news/vi...ons-pledge/amp
I did not place the blame on just the unions, I also blamed how the ports were managed and operated. We could also place blame on the state Legislature as well if we so decided to do so.

The extra 4 hours per day over 5 days is 20 hours of no work. the 2 weekends days of no work adds up to a potential 40-48 hours per week of no work. If the ports were working 24/7, they would be open 168 hours per week vs the 100 hours per week they are working now. That's potentially 68% more work.

If the ports were open 24/7, the major warehouses and depots could also open 24/7 without having people waiting around for them to open up.
Additionally, California's zero independent contractor laws makes it difficult for trucking companies to send more truckers from outside the state to these ports, warehouses, and depots. Ask your uber drivers about that law.

But let's assume independent truckers could pick up and drop off loads in California, they still can not because their tractors trailers engines do not meet the higher California emissions regulations. California has set up their freight transportation system to fail with no flexible solutions for an increase in traffic surge. There are and will always be unattended consequences for being ahead of the curve with progressive regulations.

Last edited by electricron; Oct 28, 2021 at 4:11 PM.
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  #134  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 4:33 PM
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^ All the more reason environmental policy should be set on the federal level.
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  #135  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 5:03 PM
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Although it's pretty unbelievable that the port is always shut down on Sundays, the railroads and trucking are not, and so it gives that part of the chain time to even out.

That said, as someone who used to work on a non-union commercial vessel in the Gulf of Mexico, there definitely are zero off-days during a watch, unless you're sitting in a cue of the sort we're seeing. We didn't do containers (we had bulk cargo like coal, grain, chemicals, scrap, etc.), so mind isn't a perfect comparison, but I definitely never heard of Mobile, New Orleans, or Houston shutting down on Sundays.

Last edited by jmecklenborg; Oct 28, 2021 at 6:41 PM.
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  #136  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 6:14 PM
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^ All the more reason environmental policy should be set on the federal level.
Then California could not have its more restricted regulations?

That is not going to happen!
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  #137  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 6:35 PM
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I clearly am referring to progressive standards akin to California's on a blanket federal level. Air does not start and stop at state borders.
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  #138  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 10:10 PM
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Or, maybe environmental policy could be set at the state level, and people who want to work in California just have to buy (or lease) more efficient trucks.

I know it's a little clunky, but not impossible.
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  #139  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2021, 10:11 PM
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I guess it could also be set at the regional level, if a large number of truckers are coming in from Nevada and Arizona.
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  #140  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2021, 12:27 PM
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Building passenger rail to Manchester won’t be too hard; paying for it will be

Concord Monitor
By David Brooks
Nov. 18, 2021


Image courtesy of the Concord Monitor.

"The first public airing of a plan to extend MBTA passenger rail from Lowell, Mass., to Manchester made it clear that the biggest obstacle will be the same as it has always been: Money. Specifically, local money.

“The 20 percent match, that’s been the big big stumbling block,” said Patrick Herlihy, director of Aeronautics, Rail & Transit for the Department of Transportation, in response to a question at Wednesday evening’s information session.

Federal Transit Administration capital investment grants require local sources to cover 20% of the total cost. Under the current schedule, by the end of 2022 this project would have to present “a credible and realistic financial plan to show the feds how the non-federal portion of the project is going to get funded,” said Herlihy..."

https://www.concordmonitor.com/passe...shire-43605924
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