PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[JurassicPhilly]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Philly seems to be running in 5th gear attracting tourists. I think the Bourse food options, new East Market options, and soon to be FOP (or whatever the name of the year is) with the AMC will really help round out plenty of food options and activities for tourists when the weather is less than ideal.

Any tourists that came here recently must have thought they got on the wrong plane and landed in Scotland. Maybe the vendors should capitalize on the year with no Sun by selling haggis and Scotch at Independence Hall.

[mcgrath618]

Visited the art installation at Dilworth Park yesterday. It’s actually really cool. I’m interested to see how cloudy it’s gonna be when they turn on the other lines though (which are installed but not on).

[Jayfar]

Philly land prices plummet, as weakening housing market tightens purse strings | Philly.com

Prices paid for vacant land in Philadelphia have plummeted to their lowest levels in three years after peaking in 2017, an indication that the city's development boom led by townhouse, condo and apartment projects is losing steam.

Buyers of bare development sites paid an average of $31.72 per square foot during the first six months of 2018, down more than 46 percent from last year's average of $59.23, according to public data compiled this month at the Inquirer's and Daily News' request by Kevin Gillen, senior research fellow at Drexel University's Lindy Institute for Urban Innovation.
The January-to-June prices were the lowest since 2015, when land averaged $26.94 per square foot for the year. The decline comes as apartment landlords face a surge in supply that's already starting to tamp down rents, while homebuyers tighten their purse strings in the face of increasing interest rates and other headwinds, Gillen said.

"We've seen a significant run-up in land prices during the recent development boom, and many parcels have priced themselves beyond what could feasibly be developed on them," he said. "We're seeing a correction."

[snip]

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Visited the art installation at Dilworth Park yesterday. It’s actually really cool. I’m interested to see how cloudy it’s gonna be when they turn on the other lines though (which are installed but not on).

Agreed, I think it's great. My son LOVES it. He's always been ok with the fountains (actually loves the animal sculptures on City Hall more), but now he wants to run through the steam any time we go through Dillworth Park.

But yes, curious how the constant steam from all 3 lines will look. It may be a bit much.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

Philly land prices plummet, as weakening housing market tightens purse strings | Philly.com

Prices paid for vacant land in Philadelphia have plummeted to their lowest levels in three years after peaking in 2017, an indication that the city's development boom led by townhouse, condo and apartment projects is losing steam.

Buyers of bare development sites paid an average of $31.72 per square foot during the first six months of 2018, down more than 46 percent from last year's average of $59.23, according to public data compiled this month at the Inquirer's and Daily News' request by Kevin Gillen, senior research fellow at Drexel University's Lindy Institute for Urban Innovation.
The January-to-June prices were the lowest since 2015, when land averaged $26.94 per square foot for the year. The decline comes as apartment landlords face a surge in supply that's already starting to tamp down rents, while homebuyers tighten their purse strings in the face of increasing interest rates and other headwinds, Gillen said.

"We've seen a significant run-up in land prices during the recent development boom, and many parcels have priced themselves beyond what could feasibly be developed on them," he said. "We're seeing a correction."

[snip]

This article was again, like many of Adelman's, much ado about nothing. It's a market correction, move along. The $31/sf is still 2-3 times what buyers were paying 6-7years ago. Now, if it drops below the $6 we were seeing in 2001, then it's time to panic.

Also at some point saturation becomes an issue. Small anecdote, but I know someone who started buying and flipping abandoned/derelict properties in Point Breeze about 10 years ago and did pretty well doing it as there was so much stock available and at a good price. Now, there's zero inventory left unless you're buying at auction and a lot of developers are in wait-and-see mode about moving into the morass of North Philly (the Final Frontier).

[AbortedWalrus]

I definitely think it's a function of supply. So many apartments have been built recently that it's definitely had an effect on rent prices. It's sort of to be expected that after such a major glut that there would be a decline in prices. I don't think it's a function of lack of interest in the area so much.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This article was again, like many of Adelman's, much ado about nothing. It's a market correction, move along. The $31/sf is still 2-3 times what buyers were paying 6-7years ago. Now, if it drops below the $6 we were seeing in 2001, then it's time to panic.

Now, there's zero inventory left unless you're buying at auction and a lot of developers are in wait-and-see mode about moving into the morass of North Philly (the Final Frontier).

There's a bunch going on in North Philly it's just all Temple related, Kensington adjacent, or south of Girard. It brings up a good point though, Franscisville is filling in quickly and then where to next? I don't really see Strawberry Mansion taking off. Most of it is too far from Center City and too far from existing amenities in Brewerytown to be appealing. I could see West Philly South of Market/ east of 52nd getting hot in a hurry.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This article was again, like many of Adelman's, much ado about nothing. It's a market correction, move along. The $31/sf is still 2-3 times what buyers were paying 6-7years ago. Now, if it drops below the $6 we were seeing in 2001, then it's time to panic.

Also at some point saturation becomes an issue. Small anecdote, but I know someone who started buying and flipping abandoned/derelict properties in Point Breeze about 10 years ago and did pretty well doing it as there was so much stock available and at a good price. Now, there's zero inventory left unless you're buying at auction and a lot of developers are in wait-and-see mode about moving into the morass of North Philly (the Final Frontier).

I wouldn't necessarily say it's much ado about nothing - it's certainly something - but agreed that it's just a market correction. The graph in the article says it all IMO. 2016 and, especially, 2017 prices were crazy. It also looks like these are only prices for vacant land. Could just be that the majority of the vacant land in currently hot parts of the city is now accounted for (which anecdotally certainly seems to be true).

[Tlphila]

Originally Posted by Parkway

There's a bunch going on in North Philly it's just all Temple related, Kensington adjacent, or south of Girard. It brings up a good point though, Franscisville is filling in quickly and then where to next? I don't really see Strawberry Mansion taking off. Most of it is too far from Center City and too far from existing amenities in Brewerytown to be appealing. I could see West Philly South of Market/ east of 52nd getting hot in a hurry.

I think you'll see a lot of focus north of Lehigh between the el and Aramingo. That area is pretty quiet with tons of vacant land, great access to transportation, Frankford Ave which has potential to become a commercial attraction like it has below Lehigh, and stable hoods to the east and south.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Parkway

There's a bunch going on in North Philly it's just all Temple related, Kensington adjacent, or south of Girard. It brings up a good point though, Franscisville is filling in quickly and then where to next? I don't really see Strawberry Mansion taking off. Most of it is too far from Center City and too far from existing amenities in Brewerytown to be appealing. I could see West Philly South of Market/ east of 52nd getting hot in a hurry.

I think the area between Temple and City Hall is as good as done from a development perspective. It obviously has to develop but the interest will be there for certain. That is about as much of a no-brainer as anywhere.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Tlphila

I think you'll see a lot of focus north of Lehigh between the el and Aramingo. That area is pretty quiet with tons of vacant land, great access to transportation, Frankford Ave which has potential to become a commercial attraction like it has below Lehigh, and stable hoods to the east and south.

Originally Posted by Redddog

I think the area between Temple and City Hall is as good as done from a development perspective. It obviously has to develop but the interest will be there for certain. That is about as much of a no-brainer as anywhere.

In the context of this article, it's less about actual development (PB is going to be developing for the next 10-15 years) but more about where there's buyable/vacant properties that make sense from an investment standpoint. There's just almost nothing left/available in the greater CC area. So Developers are looking at different frontiers and saying, "if i'm going to invest in XX neighborhood, no way am I going to spend what i was spending in PB in this location as there's just way more risk." - hence the market correction/price drop.

[mcgrath618]

I can't find the pictures, but it seems that Saint Joseph's Hospital is currently under construction on the 1600 Block of Girard Ave

[DudeGuy]

I'm not sure if it's part of the Fashion District redevelopment, but it looks like there's some work being done in the first floor of 801 Market Street.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Parkway

There's a bunch going on in North Philly it's just all Temple related, Kensington adjacent, or south of Girard. It brings up a good point though, Franscisville is filling in quickly and then where to next? I don't really see Strawberry Mansion taking off. Most of it is too far from Center City and too far from existing amenities in Brewerytown to be appealing. I could see West Philly South of Market/ east of 52nd getting hot in a hurry.

You’d be surprised, actually! I’ve seen some new, modern-looking homes pop up along the 1400 block of W. Huntingdon (right below Broad and Lehigh), 33rd and York (up the street from Dauphin Loop in Strawberry Mansion), 35th and Clearfield, and at 17th and Venango (although projects in this area are likely Temple-related as well, just for grad students). None of those developments were PHA-type homes either: they had square bays, modern materials, and roof decks!

I’m fully confident that Strawberry Mansion will be the next frontier for development in North Philly. The lack of heavy rail rapid transit service is a disadvantage, but several high-frequency bus routes serve that area. Fairmount Park is also right there. I’m starting to think that Allehegeny West would also make sense to develop for those looking at cheaper land with proximity to East Falls and Northwest Philly.

[Tlphila]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

You’d be surprised, actually! I’ve seen some new, modern-looking homes pop up along the 1400 block of W. Huntingdon (right below Broad and Lehigh), 33rd and York (up the street from Dauphin Loop in Strawberry Mansion), 35th and Clearfield, and at 17th and Venango (although projects in this area are likely Temple-related as well, just for grad students). None of those developments were PHA-type homes either: they had square bays, modern materials, and roof decks!

I’m fully confident that Strawberry Mansion will be the next frontier for development in North Philly. The lack of heavy rail rapid transit service is a disadvantage, but several high-frequency bus routes serve that area. Fairmount Park is also right there. I’m starting to think that Allehegeny West would also make sense to develop for those looking at cheaper land with proximity to East Falls and Northwest Philly.

B-town still has a lot of room to grow before Strawberry Mansion heats up. SM is just a very isolated neighborhood when it comes to public transportation and center city access. It has that great housing stock and park though so who knows. I just think anything along the el, in spitting distance of the Fishtown submarket takes precedent in North Philly for future development!

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Tlphila

B-town still has a lot of room to grow before Strawberry Mansion heats up. SM is just a very isolated neighborhood when it comes to public transportation and center city access. It has that great housing stock and park though so who knows. I just think anything along the el, in spitting distance of the Fishtown submarket takes precedent in North Philly for future development!

I would think West Kensington and the area between Temple and Norris Square is probably better positioned for development before SM. There's going to be a lot of development pressure on that area as Temple, NoLibs, Fishtown, Olde Kensington, East Kensington, and American Ave start to development. But then again, who knows. haha.

[PhillyEngineer]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

I'm not sure if it's part of the Fashion District redevelopment, but it looks like there's some work being done in the first floor of 801 Market Street.

C21 recently reduced is selling space on the first floor so maybe it is related to that.

[summersm343]

The very southern triangle of Strawberry Mansion is already seeing development. There are some rehabs and new construction going on there as we speak.

I think SM will develop as Brewerytown gets more expensive because it's literally right on Fairmount Park. This alone will make it desirable.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I can't find the pictures, but it seems that Saint Joseph's Hospital is currently under construction on the 1600 Block of Girard Ave

MM Partners, who are very prominent in Brewrytown rehabs, are converting it into 88 units. I believe they started around late spring, early summer.
https://mmpartnersllc.com/project/16...girard-avenue/

[Tlphila]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I would think West Kensington and the area between Temple and Norris Square is probably better positioned for development before SM. There's going to be a lot of development pressure on that area as Temple, NoLibs, Fishtown, Olde Kensington, East Kensington, and American Ave start to development. But then again, who knows. haha.

A bunch of developments are sprouting up around 6th and Berks.. Although the area does have a lot of PHA stuff mixed in