Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[Echoes]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So they built the industrial wasteland after the arena?

(note - industrial zones are important, but building them around an arena, or building an arena in an industrial zone is a strange choice).

It was always planned as an industrial area. The arena ended up out there after a civic referendum. It's an infamous saga in Saskatoon history.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So they built the industrial wasteland after the arena?

(note - industrial zones are important, but building them around an arena, or building an arena in an industrial zone is a strange choice).

Yes, the industrial uses followed. It kind of makes sense when you consider that the arena is situated on a major highway just north of the airport.

Here's a construction pic from 1987 to provide some context, the airport lands are across the highway, with little else around the arena.

[J.OT13]

Oh yeah, great spot for industrial use

Twas the trend in the late 80s and early 90s. I'm just glad Montreal, Vancouver and Toronto didn't fall into that trap.

Corel Center (now the Scotia Bank Center) by creneedavis, on Flickr

[esquire]

^ I think Saskatoon and Ottawa might have been the only Canadian cities to build major (i.e. NHL-sized, or close) rinks on the outer fringes of the city. It wasn't as common a practice here as it was in the US.

A lot of Canadian arenas built in the postwar years from about 1950-1990 went up in what we might call inner suburban locations, where they weren't downtown but they were still in established parts of the city. Pacific Coliseum, Northlands Coliseum, Winnipeg Arena, Ottawa Civic Centre, Le Colisee all come to mind. The actual downtown arenas from that era like Copps Coliseum and Halifax Metro Centre are kind of the exception.

Of course, now downtown is pretty much the default. It's kind of weird to see a new building go up that isn't downtown... one of the rare examples of that in Western Canada, at least in recent years, is the new rink in Medicine Hat way out on the Trans-Canada Highway. It's kind of a throwback to that 70s/80s style. There are literally cattle grazing on that patch of grass immediately to the left of the arena

[O-tacular]

Not surprised by Medicine Hat's arena location. I guess in a sense it's preferable they build all the big box crap near the highway and preserve the historical heart of the city.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Not surprised by Medicine Hat's arena location. I guess in a sense it's preferable they build all the big box crap near the highway and preserve the historical heart of the city.

To be honest I wonder how much of an impact a new arena really has, especially in smaller cities.

Moose Jaw has a textbook example of relatively big and impressive new arena right downtown, but when you stand outside of it there is not one single new building that went up as a result of it. There are still empty lots across the street. https://goo.gl/maps/7SEJu1v8H173ovRL6

In fairness, the MJ arena may have helped prop up some businesses a block away on the thriving main drag.

[JustForTheHalibut]

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/sask...nce-500-cheque

First this week Sask Government cut a cheque for half billion dollars worth of 'Moe Bucks' to it's citizens and now they're planning to build a stadium downtown S'toon?
Didn't Regina just spend that amount on building a stadium for the Roughtriders not long ago?

Originally posted by Echoes
This 2018 study commissioned by Sasktel Centre that set all of this in motion estimates the renovate option at $101M and build new option at $330-375M. There's also a facility condition assessment in the report.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/sask...nce-500-cheque

First this week Sask Government cut a cheque for half billion dollars worth of 'Moe Bucks' to it's citizens and now they're planning to build a stadium downtown S'toon?
Didn't Regina just spend that amount on building a stadium for the Roughtriders not long ago?

Election year in Saskatchewan?

In thing to do right now. Quebec sent cheques to everyone and now a few parties are promising tax cuts. Doug refunded everyone two years worth of license plates renewals and now we no longer have to pay to renew are plates (but still have to do it). How about taking that money to fi the health care system or literally do anything else to improve services?

In the case of the Rough Riders Stadium, it was built 2014 to 2017, so it's been a while. In a province where only two big cities of nearly the same size, I imagine the Government has to be as equitable as possible to avoid conflict. It's not like Ontario or Quebec where we have a dozen+ cities of different sizes and Government can get away with playing favourites.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

In the case of the Rough Riders Stadium, it was built 2014 to 2017, so it's been a while. In a province where only two big cities of nearly the same size, I imagine the Government has to be as equitable as possible to avoid conflict. It's not like Ontario or Quebec where we have a dozen+ cities of different sizes and Government can get away with playing favourites.

Bit of a different situation, IMO. Old Mosaic Stadium was very old and in very rough shape, much like CanadInns Stadium in that it was nowhere close to modern building codes. It didn't have much life left when it was replaced. It was getting to the point where it had to be done.

By contrast, the situation in Saskatoon is more a 'want' than a 'need'. SaskTel Centre is still very functional for what Saskatoon needs. It's just far removed from downtown so location is really the only major problem, using the term loosely, that will be fixed with a new rink.

Interestingly, Regina is also going through the process of planning its own fairly significant new downtown arena project.

[Nathan]

The provincial government also implemented a "funding model" for these type of projects. 30% of costs up to $80M.

For Mosaic Stadium, this $80M cap was applied, then the city got a loan guarantee from the province for another $100M (to generally be covered by ticket fees), with the remaining money coming directly from the City ($68M) via taxes and the Riders ($30M construction + $15M leaseholder improvments).

So, for Stoon, they could likely count on the $80M figure from the province. No word on how quickly Regina would be allowed to turn around to the province for another set of funds for a new facility, though correct - it is being actively explored. A baseball facility is also periodically thrown around.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Nathan

The provincial government also implemented a "funding model" for these type of projects. 30% of costs up to $80M.

For Mosaic Stadium, this $80M cap was applied, then the city got a loan guarantee from the province for another $100M (to generally be covered by ticket fees), with the remaining money coming directly from the City ($68M) via taxes and the Riders ($30M construction + $15M leaseholder improvments).

So, for Stoon, they could likely count on the $80M figure from the province. No word on how quickly Regina would be allowed to turn around to the province for another set of funds for a new facility, though correct - it is being actively explored. A baseball facility is also periodically thrown around.

Thanks for the insight. It will be a pricy project, it's hard to imagine it costing less than $350 million (the new 11,800 seat Coachella Valley arena clocked in at US$300 million) , and it will probably cost a fair bit more than that if they end up building 15,000 seats as discussed. So realistically around the $400 million mark. In other words, just a bit higher than the estimate Echoes posted.

It will be interesting to see how Saskatoon pays for it if the province is only kicking $80 million. Surely they can convince the province to adjust that for inflation to at least $100 million... but it still leaves quite a shortfall for the City and the WHL/NLL teams to make up.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Thanks for the insight. It will be a pricy project, it's hard to imagine it costing less than $350 million (the new 11,800 seat Coachella Valley arena clocked in at US$300 million) , and it will probably cost a fair bit more than that if they end up building 15,000 seats as discussed. So realistically around the $400 million mark. In other words, just a bit higher than the estimate Echoes posted.

It will be interesting to see how Saskatoon pays for it if the province is only kicking $80 million. Surely they can convince the province to adjust that for inflation to at least $100 million... but it still leaves quite a shortfall for the City and the WHL/NLL teams to make up.

Videotron Centre (2015) $370M = ~18K cap.
Place Bell (2017) $200M = ~10K cap.

Somewhere between $300M and $400M for a 15K Saskatoon arena.

[blueandgoldguy]

I don't see the new convention centre in those renders, just an arena. The original proposal called for a combined arena and convention centre estimated to cost $370 million. The new arena was estimated to cost $172 - $178 million.

https://thestarphoenix.com/opinion/c...leted-downtown

That year marked the 30th year of operation for SaskTel Centre on Saskatoon’s northwest edge and the 50th year for TCU Place downtown. A new combined arena and convention centre was estimated then to have cost between $330 and $370 million; renovating the existing venues was estimated at $100 million.

A new arena on its own was pegged at $172 to $178 million.

Is a new convention centre now no longer part of the plans?

[electricmodes]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

I don't see the new convention centre in those renders, just an arena. The original proposal called for a combined arena and convention centre estimated to cost $370 million. The new arena was estimated to cost $172 - $178 million.

https://thestarphoenix.com/opinion/c...leted-downtown

That year marked the 30th year of operation for SaskTel Centre on Saskatoon’s northwest edge and the 50th year for TCU Place downtown. A new combined arena and convention centre was estimated then to have cost between $330 and $370 million; renovating the existing venues was estimated at $100 million.

A new arena on its own was pegged at $172 to $178 million.

Is a new convention centre now no longer part of the plans?

I believe the new convention centre is depicted in the render for Site A, in the foreground on 22nd St. E. In the smaller render posted looking east on 22nd street, there is more of a glimpse of the new facade. It is located where the current convention centre is, so I'd venture to guess that they really aren't building a new one, just going with a full scale renovation and expansion of the existing TCU Place.

[WhipperSnapper]

No one is honest in reporting facts as they are so I can't say if there is any truth to this. I have read that this arena's pricetag will be the only public facility investment the city will be afforded to build for the next 30 years. The library, convention centre, pool will all end up deferred for decades.

[phone]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

No one is honest in reporting facts as they are so I can't say if there is any truth to this. I have read that this arena's pricetag will be the only public facility investment the city will be afforded to build for the next 30 years. The library, convention centre, pool will all end up deferred for decades.

This project is at such an early stage it doesn’t surprise me that things like scope and cost estimates haven’t been fully hammered out yet. But FWIW, Lot A and the street level render show an expanded TCU Place which I assume would be the expanded convention centre. The library is fully funded and is far closer to realization than the arena project. Site prep has commenced on that one. If shovels hit the ground for the arena project within the next 10 years I’ll be surprised. Can’t say anything about the pool project, but Saskatoon already has a reasonable wealth of civic pools so I’m not too concerned if that one gets kicked down the road a bit. Yeah the arena project is a big (enormous) ticket item but moving it forward at its current pace isn’t going to cause a cascading halt of civic projects.

[blueandgoldguy]

The owner of the Saskatchewan Rush claimed he would invest $20 million? I think into a new arena. Of course, actually committing to it is another matter.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

The owner of the Saskatchewan Rush claimed he would invest $20 million? I think into a new arena. Of course, actually committing to it is another matter.

That's not much.

Imagine a pricetag of $350 million. Let's say the SK government kicks in $100 million, which is beyond the $80 million it apparently limits itself to.

That leaves a shortfall of $250 million which will presumably be covered by the city and the teams. Let's say the proponents figure out a way to get $35 million from the feds.

So they're still $215 million short. Rush kick in $20 million (I assume to be recovered through a ticket levy?), I think the Blades would be in for at most half that, $10 million.

So assuming those best case scenarios work out, that still leaves $185 million outstanding and I'm not sure who would be able to pay for that besides the City of Saskatoon? That's a huge amount of money for a city that size. Especially considering that the arena doesn't solve a pressing critical issue of any kind. I mean, if SaskTel Centre had burned to the ground and Saskatoon was forced to replace it if it wanted to have an arena it would be one thing, but that isn't the case here.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's going to be a formidable challenge. That's a lot of debt being taken on to support this project.

[JustForTheHalibut]

^
Regina may have been able to do it with their stadium but I can't see Saskatoon coming up with the money. Same province spent all that stadium money already not long ago.

Originally post by WhipperSnapper
No one is honest in reporting facts as they are so I can't say if there is any truth to this. I have read that this arena's pricetag will be the only public facility investment the city will be afforded to build for the next 30 years. The library, convention centre, pool will all end up deferred for decades.

Wait what?
I looked at this earlier this year. Saskatoon already HAS two competition swimming pools with a total of 18 lanes of competitive swimming, both have 10 meter platforms for diving. Why in this universe does a city like Saskatoon need another 3rd similar sized pool. So they can have 28 lanes of swimming? Kamloops' Canada Games pool is an 8 lane pool and has been in use for 30 years and is good enough.

https://suchinews.com/saskatoon-comm...er-suchi-news/

https://www.saskatoon.ca/parks-recre...es/shaw-centre

https://www.saskatoon.ca/parks-recre...aquatic-centre




yep and I just checked, wouldn't you know it, but Regina is planning a new indoor competitive pool too,
apparently to compliment their newest outside pool they built this year.

https://regina.ctvnews.ca/council-to...ding-1.5928659



In comparison.
A city like Halifax currently has only 8 lanes of competitive swimming left since their Centennial pool and Nova scotia's only 10 meter platform is down for the count apparently.


https://www.saltwire.com/atlantic-ca...dry-100695341/

[thurmas]

so Halifax the hub of Atlantic Canada has a porto potty temp stadium for the wanderers, an inadequate pool and no stadium on the horizon at all for cfl and a metro centre arena from the 70s. Whereas Regina a city almost half its size could soon have a brand new WHL arena, brand new baseball stadium and it currently has the most modern stadium in Canada for CFL.