Toronto's Subway Ridership Success

[homebucket]

The Bay Area has a very tech-centric workforce so it's not surprising that ridership is way down, and probably the region least likely to see recovery back to pre-pandemic numbers. Even other industries like biotech and telemedicine have either gone fully remote or hybrid.

[Wigs]

What's the furthest stop from Downtown Chicago that the CTA (rail) operates?

In Toronto about 4.5 years ago the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre (VMC) opened in the northern suburb of Vaughan that is home to ~325,000.
On the TTC it's 38.8km (/24.1 miles) from Union station on the Yonge-University line, but is a multimodal station integrated with multiple bus systems. Around the multimodal station they are building and plan to build a dense cluster of high-rises around the station for residents and employment.
KPMG for example has a sizeable office here as does PwC. And they've already built a YMCA and new library.

It's quite interesting to me if they can take a bland, sprawling suburb and create a viable urban centre out of nothing.
https://myvmc.ca/

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by homebucket

The Bay Area has a very tech-centric workforce so it's not surprising that ridership is way down, and probably the region least likely to see recovery back to pre-pandemic numbers. Even other industries like biotech and telemedicine have either gone fully remote or hybrid.

Also don't the tech giants like Facebook operate private bus systems as spoofed on the TV show 'Silicon Valley' with the dark tinted windows?
That's gotta take a chunk out of potential ridership numbers.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Wigs

In Toronto about 4.5 years ago the Vaughan Metropolitan Centre (VMC) opened in the northern suburb of Vaughan that is home to ~325,000.
On the TTC it's 38.8km (/24.1 miles) from Union station on the Yonge-University line, but is a multimodal station integrated with multiple bus systems. Around the multimodal station they are building and plan to build a dense cluster of high-rises around the station for residents and employment.
KPMG for example has a sizeable office here as does PwC. And they've already built a YMCA and new library.

It's quite interesting to me if they can take a bland, sprawling suburb and create a viable urban centre out of nothing.
https://myvmc.ca/

That would never happen in the U.S. It wouldn't even be proposed. Combination of ultra-NIMBYism, political fragmentation, complex land use approvals, and general hostility to high density in suburban areas.

To be fair, Vaughn still sucks, and ridership on that new subway extension is pretty light. Now it's just ugly sprawl with a lot more density. It's definitely more efficient and environmentally sound, however.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Also don't the tech giants like Facebook operate private bus systems as spoofed on the TV show 'Silicon Valley' with the dark tinted windows?
That's gotta take a chunk out of potential ridership numbers.

The shuttles were already there pre-pandemic too so it's not like they would have any effect on public transit ridership numbers pre and post-pandemic. But like public transit ridership, there's far less tech shuttles around than there used to be.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by homebucket

The shuttles were already there pre-pandemic too so it's not like they would have any effect on public transit ridership numbers pre and post-pandemic. But like public transit ridership, there's far less tech shuttles around than there used to be.

fair.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That would never happen in the U.S. It wouldn't even be proposed. Combination of ultra-NIMBYism, political fragmentation, complex land use approvals, and general hostility to high density in suburban areas.

To be fair, Vaughn still sucks, and ridership on that new subway extension is pretty light. Now it's just ugly sprawl with a lot more density. It's definitely more efficient and environmentally sound, however.

VMC is coming along nicely but still about 2 dozen more towers to go before it reaches its potential

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That would never happen in the U.S. It wouldn't even be proposed. Combination of ultra-NIMBYism, political fragmentation, complex land use approvals, and general hostility to high density in suburban areas.

To be fair, Vaughn still sucks, and ridership on that new subway extension is pretty light. Now it's just ugly sprawl with a lot more density. It's definitely more efficient and environmentally sound, however.

agree, but due to the multimodal transit hub with direct access to downtown Toronto via subway it has the potential to be something a lot better than say Mississauga's City Centre ever will. Ridership will be a lot greater once they build a dozen plus more highrises of office and residential/mixed-use.

They're building a 10.7acre "Central Park"
https://www.claudecormier.com/en/pro...ecentral-park/

and to the East redeveloping a section of the Black Creek area into Edgeley Park and Pond.
Each element will help it become a livable area.
https://www.vaughan.ca/VMC/Pages/Edg...and-Park-.aspx

________________________
getting way off-topic, but Crawford if you have photos from your recent trip to Toronto I'd love to see a thread. We always like seeing the city from outsider's perspective.
Technically I'm an outsider too, but my Dad's a born/raised Torontonian (off Danforth near Coxwell subway station)

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Nite

VMC is coming along nicely but still about 2 dozen more towers to go before it reaches its potential

That Ikea (and its gargantuan parking lot) needs to move so they can build more high-density Res/mixed-use!
I believe Walmart is in the process of doing that, if they haven't already.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Wigs

That Ikea (and its gargantuan parking lot) needs to move so they can build more high-density Res/mixed-use!
I believe Walmart is in the process of doing that, if they haven't already.

The Walmart moved around 2 years ago and the Ikea is staying put. no need to worry about it yet as there is still plenty of towers to be built.
I am sure having an local Ikea is a big selling point for these developments anyway.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Nite

The Walmart moved around 2 years ago and the Ikea is staying put. no need to worry about it yet as there is still plenty of towers to be built.
I am sure having an local Ikea is a big selling point for these developments anyway.

thanks for your input. I understand the point, but still think Ikea should move nearby if possible
"sorry Ikea, a 58 storey condo has to go here"

[homebucket]

They could always convert it into an urban IKEA with a smaller footprint like the one they're doing in SF.

New Renderings For Livat-Branded IKEA At 945 Market Street, San Francisco


BY: ANDREW NELSON 5:00 AM ON JULY 8, 2022

Ingka Centres has filed updated plans for the future home to IKEA at 945 Market Street in SoMa, San Francisco. The project will provide a major tenant and new life to the mall under the Ingka Center’s Livat branding for their new urban shops. Gensler, the original architect, will be responsible for recladding and upgrades to the interior and exterior.

The purchase of the 6×6 Mall by Ingka Center is part of the firm’s pivot toward urban retail. IKEA has long been synonymous with the massive warehouse retail experience, and the new San Francisco location will challenge this notation. The IKEA shop will occupy only a portion of the five-story mall. The rest of the building will feature more retail, shops, and gathering spaces.



...

The application provides an exhaustive list of work required. The exterior work will include new cladding of the existing building marquee, new cladding of existing cable net curtain wall surround, new retail display window at the building entrance, exterior lighting upgrades, demolition of existing banner outriggers, and new punched window openings at the rear facade. Interior work will include building a new structural pedestrian bridge on the second floor, non-structural partitions, doors, ceiling, millwork, lighting, and new architectural finishes where indicated.

https://sfyimby.com/2022/07/new-rend...francisco.html

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by homebucket

They could always convert it into an urban IKEA with a smaller footprint like the one they're doing in SF.

No need to look to SF - Toronto just opened a new urban format Ikea downtown.


https://torontolife.com/city/inside-...e-and-gerrard/

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by JHikka

No need to look to SF - Toronto just opened a new urban format Ikea downtown.

Great cities think alike!

[Nite]

A well timed video by Reece about the massive transit expansion happening in Toronto right now

• Video Link

[JHikka]

There's definitely a lot going on and things will be exciting in the coming 5-10 years but there's so much more that's needed for an effective system. Things like extending the Sheppard Line to Sheppard West (and beyond) are just small additions that would make a big difference in the long run.

I don't know how much interest there is in streetcar expansion at the moment but I've been thinking recently about how the East End could use another streetcar line that goes N/S. A streetcar that runs up Woodbine and O'Connor to meet the Eglinton LRT at Victoria Park would be useful, IMO. There are plenty of options to travel E/W but getting N/S is a bit awkward once one is too far east for Broadview.

I spent too much time in Scarborough recently and found commuting on a bus out that way to be fine but really think Warden could use an LRT to connect N/S between Line 2 and Eglinton as well.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Nite

VMC is coming along nicely but still about 2 dozen more towers to go before it reaches its potential

...

Huge expanse of industrial parks in Vaughan, so expansive that you could actually build an urban node bigger than Downtown Toronto itself. That potential is already going down the toilet, however. Blocks are too big, streets are too wide, etc. It's just further proof that even with well-intentioned ambitions, creating human-scale urbanism from scratch in this day and age is near impossible unless it has contextual fabric to work with. But even then there's a tendency to build horizontal skyscrapers that don't bring life to the streetscape.

[ssiguy]

Despite the fact that bitching about the TTC is a Toronto pass time, the transit service in Toronto is fantastic.

The service levels of Toronto's subways and streetcars are excellent and the bus service and frequency is the best in NA. Even in the suburban areas of the city of Toronto, waiting 5 minutes anytime during the day is usually the most you will have to do.

The difference between Toronto and basically every American transit service is that Toronto views the TTC as a SYSTEM knowing that the success of each mode is heavily dependent upon each other. You can't have great subway ridership {and hence frequency} without excellent bus and streetcar service and vice-versa.

Another thing that Toronto does better than any American system is it's dedication to "state of good repair". Despite Torontonian's bitching, the subways, buses, and streetcars are clean, very well maintained, and modern. When you are on the TTC, you really do feel like you are on a first class system which is one of the reasons why people of all socio-economic status take it.

[tdawg]

Maybe the TTC should run Pearson. Just had to fly through there and it and Air Canada are a hot mess.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That would never happen in the U.S. It wouldn't even be proposed. Combination of ultra-NIMBYism, political fragmentation, complex land use approvals, and general hostility to high density in suburban areas.

To be fair, Vaughn still sucks, and ridership on that new subway extension is pretty light. Now it's just ugly sprawl with a lot more density. It's definitely more efficient and environmentally sound, however.

2019 saw about 110,000 daily trips on the Vaughan extension - though only about 17,000 from Vaughan itself. This is on 8.6km.

Compare to Chicago's busiest line, the Red Line north of Downtown, which over about 16.5km, saw 103,000 daily riders in 2019.

So the "low ridership" subway to Toronto's deep suburbs actually sees more use than Chicago's busiest line. Vaughan station is busier than any station on Chicago's red line except for Lake.

Shows the cultural and transit use pattern differences in the two cities.

I continue to believe these differences have a lot to do with the vastly larger amount of automotive infrastructure capacity into downtown Chicago which simply doesn't exist in Toronto - both in terms of freeway access to the core but in terms of local automotive capacity through the core.