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  #241  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 5:00 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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One day, when the NE corridor line is a true HSR, with 300km+ service, it could be one integrated labor market.

But that will probably be a few decades from now.
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  #242  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
One day, when the NE corridor line is a true HSR, with 300km+ service, it could be one integrated labor market.

But that will probably be a few decades from now.
Yeah. Even Europe that's been working on it since the 1970's have very few services going above 300km/h. Upgrades and better integration have been going on very slowly.

And there's China that built 40,000 km of high speed rail from the scratch starting in 2008, but their model can only be replicated maybe in the Middle East.
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  #243  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2022, 5:11 PM
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If they managed to speed up the train (40 min), work with more frequencies, a more inviting price or come up with a commute fee, New York and Philadelphia labour markets could be regarded as a single one.
The census bureau will probably never officially consolidate them, but NY and Philadelphia are already effectively a single labor market. There is geographic overlap between the two.

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  #244  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:18 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The census bureau will probably never officially consolidate them, but NY and Philadelphia are already effectively a single labor market. There is geographic overlap between the two.
The Office of Budget and Management is responsible for defining single labor markets, and they have so far declined to agree with you on this claim.
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  #245  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 7:47 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The census bureau will probably never officially consolidate them, but NY and Philadelphia are already effectively a single labor market. There is geographic overlap between the two.



Hah.
They are almost 100 miles apart. I wouldn't exactly say these two function as a single labor market because that's supercommuter distance. That's slightly more than LA and San Diego.

Plus, New York would never accept Gritty.
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  #246  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 12:33 PM
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The census bureau will probably never officially consolidate them, but NY and Philadelphia are already effectively a single labor market. There is geographic overlap between the two.
But overlap is only on their fringes. What's the commute rate between New York-Trenton MSAs and Philadelphia MSA? 1%-2%?

For a CSA merge, I guess it should rise to 15% if I'm not mistaken. For that, commute from core Philadelphia MSA sto Northeast NJ and Manhattan should be much faster.

If you have a job in NYC, like urban environments but can't afford its prices, with a 40 min commute, Philadelphia would be a great option.
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  #247  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 1:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
They are almost 100 miles apart. I wouldn't exactly say these two function as a single labor market because that's supercommuter distance. That's slightly more than LA and San Diego.

Plus, New York would never accept Gritty.
I don't disagree but New Haven is part of the New York metro area and it is 84 miles (according to Google Maps) from New York City. This is only ten miles less than the distance from New York - Philly.
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  #248  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 2:45 PM
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Plus, New York would never accept Gritty.
Regardless, Gritty loves us all.



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Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
But overlap is only on their fringes. What's the commute rate between New York-Trenton MSAs and Philadelphia MSA? 1%-2%?

For a CSA merge, I guess it should rise to 15% if I'm not mistaken. For that, commute from core Philadelphia MSA sto Northeast NJ and Manhattan should be much faster.

If you have a job in NYC, like urban environments but can't afford its prices, with a 40 min commute, Philadelphia would be a great option.
During the pandemic we had a bigger influx of New Yorkers and it doesn't seem to be slowing down, especially with remote and hybrid work schedules. This has been a piece of why the housing costs increased rapidly and we have a shortage in some areas.

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I don't disagree but New Haven is part of the New York metro area and it is 84 miles (according to Google Maps) from New York City. This is only ten miles less than the distance from New York - Philly.
Yeah and the area is so blended now and you have people from closer to Central NJ working in the Philly market or the NYC market, people in Philly commuting to NYC...the lines are definitely getting blurrier as time marches on.
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  #249  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 2:57 PM
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They are almost 100 miles apart. I wouldn't exactly say these two function as a single labor market because that's supercommuter distance. That's slightly more than LA and San Diego.
No, the labor markets aren't 100 miles apart. The NYC CSA is directly adjacent to the Philadelphia MSA.
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  #250  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 4:57 PM
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They are adjacent labor markets, but they're definitely not a single labor market; also, the cores of these "adjacent" labor markets are indeed 80-100 miles apart.
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  #251  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 5:36 PM
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They are adjacent labor markets, but they're definitely not a single labor market; also, the cores of these "adjacent" labor markets are indeed 80-100 miles apart.
But... they are. There's nothing stopping a business on the NY side of the line from hiring a worker that lives on the Philadelphia side of the line.
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  #252  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 5:49 PM
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I wouldn't say they are a single labor market. I would say they are directly adjacent labor markets with a fair bit of venn diagram style overlap in the middle.

Very blurry edges to be sure sure, but still not a single unified labor market from Wilmington to New Haven in my eyes.
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  #253  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 5:55 PM
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But... they are. There's nothing stopping a business on the NY side of the line from hiring a worker that lives on the Philadelphia side of the line.
But that argument, essentially "there's nothing stopping an employer from hiring someone who's extremely far away, if they really want to hire that person and the person is okay with a completely insane commute", doesn't hold water. I mean, it's a truism, and it doesn't prove anything about labor markets.

My ex-gf's uncle lived in Santa Barbara and worked for a Bay Area tech company; he flew to San Francisco in order to physically show up at the office something like 2-3 times a month.

Arrangements like this don't mean anything.

Especially nowadays (with the newest tech and the acceptance of WFH).

I've been doing office work this morning for my Florida corporation from my Quebec office, by your logic that's a single labor market?
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  #254  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
But that "there's nothing stopping an employer from hiring someone who's extremely far away" argument just doesn't hold water.

My ex-gf's uncle lived in Santa Barbara and worked for a Bay Area tech company; he flew to San Francisco in order to physically show up at the office something like 2-3 times a month.

Arrangements like this don't mean anything.

Especially nowadays (with the newest tech and the acceptance of WFH).

I've been doing office work this morning for my Florida corporation from my Quebec office, by your logic that's a single labor market?
Clearly that's not the same thing as hundreds of thousands of people being able to easily drive 20 minutes down the road to cross into another "labor market".
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  #255  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I wouldn't say they are a single labor market. I would say they are directly adjacent labor markets with a fair bit of venn diagram style overlap in the middle.

Very blurry edges to be sure sure, but still not a single unified labor market from Wilmington to New Haven in my eyes.
Exactly. There's going to be overlap all the times, at the edges of all markets.

I'm sure there are couples where one works in Chicago, the other in Milwaukee. Or one works in Chicago, the other in Indy.

Long commutes for both of them, but if they both have great and non-portable jobs, it may be worth it.
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  #256  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Clearly that's not the same thing as hundreds of thousands of people being able to easily drive 20 minutes down the road to cross into another "labor market".
The Philly labor market is in Philly, the NYC labor market is in NYC.

Sure, someone living halfway between those cities can access the local edges of both labor markets "easily", and can access either labor market core through a really long commute. No one disputes that. Still doesn't mean they aren't two separate labor markets. If you offered me a great job in Philly and I accepted it, I'd move to Philly (or its suburbs). If you instead offered me a great job in NYC and I accepted it, I'd move to NYC (or its suburbs). If you're hiring cheap local labor in NYC, you don't place ads in Philly - and vice versa.
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  #257  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:15 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
The Philly labor market is in Philly, the NYC labor market is in NYC.

Sure, someone living halfway between those cities can access the local edges of both labor markets "easily", and can access either labor market core through a really long commute. No one disputes that. Still doesn't mean they aren't two separate labor markets. If you offered me a great job in Philly and I accepted it, I'd move to Philly (or its suburbs). If you instead offered me a great job in NYC and I accepted it, I'd move to NYC (or its suburbs). If you're hiring cheap local labor in NYC, you don't place ads in Philly - and vice versa.
We're not talking about NYC, we're talking about metropolitan labor pools. A job in Princeton or New Brunswick is part of the NY labor market, but would be reasonably accessible to people that live in parts of the Philadelphia metro area.
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  #258  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
We're not talking about NYC, we're talking about metropolitan labor pools. A job in Princeton or New Brunswick is part of the NY labor market, but would be reasonably accessible to people that live in parts of the Philadelphia metro area.
But the share of people living on Philadelphia MSA and work on New York CSA (and vice-versa) are extremely low. They cannot be regarded as a single labour market.
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  #259  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
We're not talking about NYC, we're talking about metropolitan labor pools. A job in Princeton or New Brunswick is part of the NY labor market, but would be reasonably accessible to people that live in parts of the Philadelphia metro area.
Sure, the same way a job in Kenosha is reasonably accessible to people in both Chicago and Milwaukee, etc.

Edge overlap is normal when you have two separate labor markets that touch each other.

I think one good quick metric would be advertising when hiring: if you have a random low-level job opening in Chicago to fill, do you place an ad in the Milwaukee craigslist help wanted section, or you don't bother doing that?
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  #260  
Old Posted Aug 19, 2022, 6:26 PM
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But the share of people living on Philadelphia MSA and work on New York CSA (and vice-versa) are extremely low. They cannot be regarded as a single labour market.
Define low? What large MSAs in the U.S. besides SF/SJ and DC/Baltimore have more inter-metro commuters than NY and Philadelphia?
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