HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4841  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 4:16 AM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,669
Ahem... not a hockey rink, but an arts/community/entertainment venue.
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4842  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 4:21 AM
Dalreg's Avatar
Dalreg Dalreg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 1,891
Wow someone woke on the wrong side of the bed this morning....

I find it funny that every city has a very small vocal minority that think their voices ring louder and clearer for the whole community.
__________________
Blow this popsicle stand
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4843  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 4:40 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
Ahem... not a hockey rink, but an arts/community/entertainment venue.
It's a hockey rink - no need to bullshit those with no desire to be bullshitted.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4844  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 4:43 AM
craner's Avatar
craner craner is offline
Go Tall or Go Home
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 6,741
^^Yeah really - I wish milo would tell us how he really felt.
I’m confident this will all get worked out and we’ll get a great new arena.
Rumours I’ve heard is CMLC is requesting some very strange program elements.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4845  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:15 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Why? As I understand it, Calgary is a quite profitable market for NHL, but even if that wasn't the case it would hardly destroy Calgary if they left. IMO it would be a badge of honour for Calgary to say no to subsidies. What makes Calgary great is our love of the free market, and no better way to show that than to refuse subsidies for a profit making endeavour.
I argue that hockey is engraved in our culture, one of only a few things that unites our country, from coast to coast to coast.

I am a fan of the game and fan of the Flames and NHL, mainly for reasons I stated above. To lose the NHL would be a loss to what partly defines us Canadian.

This stadium will be used for many other events, with the Calgary Stampede being another large stakeholder in this project, which truly showcases Calgary as a first-class city to NA.

All of this is my opinion, and I would consider it to be a big loss.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4846  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:21 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
It's a hockey rink - no need to bullshit those with no desire to be bullshitted.
Except when other sports are played there, like lacrosse, its not a hockey rink... or when other major events come to the city, like the Brier, or World curling, or music awards. And except when concerts come, or during the Stampede, then its an entertainment venue. Or other rodeo events.

As you can probably see that, no, it very much will not be considered just a hockey rink. There are many, many other stakeholders that this project would benefit, not just the main stakeholder.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4847  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:30 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,669
If you build an NHL rink with public money in Chestermere with 12000 parking stalls with little to no pre/post spend and limited development uplift in the area tax-wise, that's a poor use of money.

If you compliment multiple other major development opportunities worth a billion or two with a community asset and have someone else pay operating costs for 30-35years along with adding a serious uplift in your area tax base, it all of a sudden becomes a better venture.

Do I love public dollars going to billionaires for rinks, no, but no more so than I love a 200million interchange or overpass to save people 5mins in traffic.

The public sector often partners or invests alongside other orders of government and private investors to deliver public good, culture, sport and economic development opportunities and this is no different.

550mil/35 is 15mil a year

Calgary's pothole budget is 20-50mil/yr
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4848  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:35 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
I argue that hockey is engraved in our culture, one of only a few things that unites our country, from coast to coast to coast.

I am a fan of the game and fan of the Flames and NHL, mainly for reasons I stated above. To lose the NHL would be a loss to what partly defines us Canadian.
Just want to point out that hockey would still exist in Calgary without the NHL. Not sure how far the reasoning of 'The NHL is Canadian culture' or 'The NHL defines us as Canadian' goes if you're tying that culture to multi-million dollar franchises whose sole purpose is to make money. Perhaps Habs fans feel differently these days than they did in the 1950s.

I don't disagree with the notion that Calgary probably should have a large arena downtown that fits the need of sport, entertainment, etc. - just don't think the NHL=Culture card is a great one to play. There's more to hockey in Canada than that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4849  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:42 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Just want to point out that hockey would still exist in Calgary without the NHL. Not sure how far the reasoning of 'The NHL is Canadian culture' or 'The NHL defines us as Canadian' goes if you're tying that culture to multi-million dollar franchises whose sole purpose is to make money.

I don't disagree with the notion that Calgary probably should have a large arena downtown that fits the need of sport, entertainment, etc. - just don't think the NHL=Culture card is a great one to play. There's more to hockey in Canada than that.
Sure, but you'd still expect a city of 1.5 million people that is the fourth largest in the land to have a team at the top domestic professional level of a sport that's considered a defining characteristic of the country.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4850  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:44 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Just want to point out that hockey would still exist in Calgary without the NHL. Not sure how far the reasoning of 'The NHL is Canadian culture' will go if you're tying that culture to multi-million dollar franchises whose sole purpose is to make money.

I don't disagree with the notion that Calgary probably should have a large arena downtown that fits the need of sport, entertainment, etc. - just don't think the NHL=Culture card is a great one to play. There's more to hockey in Canada than that.
I'm playing that card because it's my opinion, that I'm right to have. I look at Winnipeg, for example, or QC, for example, how, to me, really took a backseat in terms of relevance in the hockey world, and hockey in this country, and their relevance in general. Winnipeg had a massive boost to it city and culture since the Jets came back... do you remember 2 (or 3) years ago when they had that big playoff run that brought 10's if not hundreds of thousands to the streets to cheer them on? Without the NHL, nothing else would bring the city together like that. Same for Calgary's 2004 playoff run, or Edmonton's 2006 playoff run, NHL brought the entire cities together, that no other event could do. I consider basketball now engraved in Toronto's culture, simply because of what the Raptors did a few years ago... tough to disagree with that, no?;

For Calgary to not be part of that cross country rivalry that the NHL brings to its major cities, would lose part of that culture. The people of this city wouldn't be exposed to the "big time" that the NHL and the hockey that it brings, and the cultural experience that goes with it.

That's in the card that is being played. You're free to disagree with the points I've stated, and how the game and major sports relate to their cultural relevance..
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4851  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:46 PM
JHikka's Avatar
JHikka JHikka is offline
ハルウララ
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 12,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
I'm playing that card because it's my opinion, that I'm right to have.
How could I forget!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
I look at Winnipeg, for example, or QC, for example, how, to me, really took a backseat in terms of relevance in the hockey world, and hockey in this country.
In the world of the NHL, yes, but hockey still exists in these places regardless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
Winnepeg had a massive boost to it city and culture since the Jets came back... do you remember 2 (or 3) years ago when they had that big playoff run that brough 10's if not hundreds of thousands to the streets to chear them on? Without the NHL, nothing else would bring the city together like that. Same for Calgary's 2004 playoff run, or Edmonton's 2006 playoff run, NHL brought the entire cities together, that no other event could do. I consider basketball now engraved in Toronto's culture, simply because of what the Raptors did a few years ago... tough to disagree with that, no?;
Do you think taxpayers should subsidize sports teams that are valued in the billions so that these cultural events can have the potential to occur? If that's the case then perhaps the City of Calgary should consider simply outright buying the Flames so that these sorts of situations can be avoided in the future. Should only cost them $500M or so, give or take.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4852  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:48 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoflyzone View Post
Yeah but hockey arenas are better at generating revenue than stand alone soccer or football or baseball stadiums. You can often use the same hockey arena for basketball games/concerts. Etc.

Dont hockey arenas have some of the highest usage in terms of days/year?

That, and the fact they are smaller/cheaper* than those other stadiums, means your ROI will be had sooner.

*excluding those cheapish soccer specific stadiums, like saputo stadium, which is basically mostly aluminum grand stands and grass.
Yes, but there is an adverse selection problem.

In a market like Toronto where you can charge lets say, $25 a ticket for the facility fee, and not effect the number of nights utilized and sold out, you can be profitable.

For smaller centres, it is much more marginal. In Calgary and Edmonton the NHL arenas regularly hold events where a $25 facility would increase the average ticket price by 50% or more. Which causes the adverse selection: you start reducing your utilization, which increases the facility fee, which reduces utilization more, which increases the facility fee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I don't want one in Calgary and think The Flames are an offensive parasite, so why should I support paying to build it?
The main argument for me is even without the Flames, Calgary would eventually build a 12,000-16,000 seat large arena show music venue which could also hold hockey and figure skating in a pinch. And since that would likely be a ~$300 million investment, why not go in on a joint use with someone like the Flames.

Sure you can argue the public shouldn't subsidize 12,000 seat large arena music, and I would point out in response that the Alberta subsidizes 2,500 seat Broadway shows, 1,800 seat concerts, etc.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4853  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:58 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
I suppose this is really a question for the accountants. Are the Flames' books more like the Jets and Senators (and therefore requiring massive public arena subsidies), or are they more like the Leafs and Rangers (in which case they can pay for it themselves)?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4854  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 2:59 PM
jamincan jamincan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: KW
Posts: 1,438
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
I argue that hockey is engraved in our culture, one of only a few things that unites our country, from coast to coast to coast.

I am a fan of the game and fan of the Flames and NHL, mainly for reasons I stated above. To lose the NHL would be a loss to what partly defines us Canadian.
I think you're probably overstating the importance of hockey in the modern era.

Quote:
In a recent interview, I told Fitz-Gerald that, early in his book, he perfectly describes the sense of shock I felt when I learned that hockey is struggling. Fitz-Gerald wrote that the hockey community in Canada is akin to a walled city. Inside the walls, it’s business as usual. Hockey is thriving. It’s the hub of community life. Parents spend a ton of their waking hours at rinks (Fitz-Gerald and I are both fathers of young sons who have fallen completely in love with the game). Lifelong friendships are formed among both players and their families.

But outside the walls, as the number of Canadians actually participating in hockey stagnates or declines, the very concept of Canadian recreation is evolving. Although Toronto is set to grow by 500,000 people between now and 2041, it will need fewer rinks. It will need a lot more places to play soccer, basketball, and cricket.

...

But the idealized version of hockey — happy kids passing a puck back and forth on a frozen snow-dusted pond — isn’t remotely like how Canadian children are experiencing the game today. “It’s regimented,” Fitz-Gerald declared. “It’s disciplined. It’s expensive. And it’s not fun anymore. Kids are dropping out faster than they’re signing up.” The stats back this up — even as girls’ hockey has grown, overall youth participation in hockey is down by roughly half over the last generation. “We’re making it too expensive to join and not enough fun to stay in if you do,” Fitz-Gerald lamented, noting that, even in wealthy areas, hockey participation is stagnant or dropping.
https://www.tvo.org/article/end-of-a...nd-such-a-drag
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4855  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 3:01 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,307
[QUOTE=JHikka;9249849]How could I forget!


Quote:
In the world of the NHL, yes, but hockey still exists in these places regardless.
Bought nothing that brings the city together like the NHL


Quote:
Do you think taxpayers should subsidize sports teams that are valued in the billions so that these cultural events can have the potential to occur? If that's the case then perhaps the City of Calgary should consider simply outright buying the Flames so that these sorts of situations can be avoided in the future.
No I don't think the should, but there are circumstances where tax payer dollars can be spent, that would benefit a significant amount of the people in the city, not just speaking in terms of hockey... the Calgary Stampede for example pulls in over 1 million people to the couple square kilometers downtown over a course of 10 days, for example, with hundreds of thousands of those will have some sort of interaction or experience with the new venue.

The City buying the Flames probably isn't a bad idea, considering it is profitable business!... just like how city of Edmonton owns the Esks, Winnepeg owns the Bombers, and Regina own the Riders... the Riders and Bombers are probably great examples of how the game helps define their culture. With the CFL stripped from their city, a large part of their identity would be stripped as well. Junior, University, or High School football wouldn't fill that void.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4856  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 3:43 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 11,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I suppose this is really a question for the accountants. Are the Flames' books more like the Jets and Senators (and therefore requiring massive public arena subsidies), or are they more like the Leafs and Rangers (in which case they can pay for it themselves)?
Important to split teams and arenas.

If an arena can in effect guarantee they'll be occupied 200+ nights a year with sell outs at a facility fee per ticket which recovers capital (and leases to tenants which covers operating), they can be private. A 50 night per year team covering the other 150 nights a year of an arena is really iffy.

So lets say a small market arena needs a non-NHL facility fee of $10 a ticket to maximize non-nhl facility fee revenue. All of a sudden the economics is crazy - the NHL nights need to contribute $70 a ticket!

Numbers just for comparison

Large market: 200 sellout nights * $25 facility fee = $5,000
Small market: 50 NHL sellout nights * $X facility fee + 150 revenue maximization other nights * $10 facility fee - $5,000

You solve for X and you see that it is now $70!

Now, use the argument that the Flames are worth $450 million. Standard valuation gives them positive cash flow of $45 million a year, from tickets, tv rights, merchandising, etc. Tickets are estimated to be 37% of gross revenue for the NHL.

37% of $45 million is $16.65 million. To pay for a $600 million arena, with a 5 year deferral for the construction period, and a $30 year payoff period at 3.014% interest (what the province will lend to municipalities) would be drumroll: $30,527,366.52

So no. The Flames cannot support the cost of an arena.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4857  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 3:58 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamincan View Post
I think you're probably overstating the importance of hockey in the modern era.


https://www.tvo.org/article/end-of-a...nd-such-a-drag
It's most definitely true that hockey is in decline in Canada, but that doesn't mean that its place as the culturally iconic sport is going to going away any time soon.

Football became more popular than baseball decades ago in the US, and still baseball today remains up there as one of the most iconic aspects of American culture in general.

In our case, well with Canada being Canada, the ultimate result of hockey's receding place will likely be that we don't have any iconic sport at all associated with the country, as opposed to seeing another sport replace hockey in that role.

But that's still a long way down the line I'd say.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4858  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 4:06 PM
milomilo milomilo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
The main argument for me is even without the Flames, Calgary would eventually build a 12,000-16,000 seat large arena show music venue which could also hold hockey and figure skating in a pinch. And since that would likely be a ~$300 million investment, why not go in on a joint use with someone like the Flames.

Sure you can argue the public shouldn't subsidize 12,000 seat large arena music, and I would point out in response that the Alberta subsidizes 2,500 seat Broadway shows, 1,800 seat concerts, etc.
This is the most effective argument for me. I reluctantly was OK with the deal up until the cost increase - while it was still a financial loser for the city, making that deal with The Flames was probably the least bad option that could realistically be expected in order to get a modern facility.

But now there is a cost increase (despite contingencies)! And CSEC, true to form, are being tone deaf and have an outsize opinion of their importance, arrogantly making obscene demands. I'll accept a cost increase, but I want the city to play hard ball here and stand up for taxpayers. They must be prepared to walk from the deal and start over.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4859  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 4:13 PM
Hackslack Hackslack is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 2,307
Quote:
Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
This is the most effective argument for me. I reluctantly was OK with the deal up until the cost increase - while it was still a financial loser for the city, making that deal with The Flames was probably the least bad option that could realistically be expected in order to get a modern facility.

But now there is a cost increase (despite contingencies)! And CSEC, true to form, are being tone deaf and have an outsize opinion of their importance, arrogantly making obscene demands. I'll accept a cost increase, but I want the city to play hard ball here and stand up for taxpayers. They must be prepared to walk from the deal and start over.
I'm in agreement with you, that's totally fair. It's a deal that needs to make sense for all stakeholders, which has been a part of my argument for utilizing tax dollars to support this massive, municipal modernization project.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4860  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2021, 6:42 PM
Chadillaccc's Avatar
Chadillaccc Chadillaccc is offline
ARTchitecture
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cala Ghearraidh
Posts: 22,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
If you build an NHL rink with public money in Chestermere with 12000 parking stalls with little to no pre/post spend and limited development uplift in the area tax-wise, that's a poor use of money.
You leave Ottawa out of this!!!





Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
I argue that hockey is engraved in our culture, one of only a few things that unites our country, from coast to coast to coast.

I am a fan of the game and fan of the Flames and NHL, mainly for reasons I stated above. To lose the NHL would be a loss to what partly defines us Canadian.

This stadium will be used for many other events, with the Calgary Stampede being another large stakeholder in this project, which truly showcases Calgary as a first-class city to NA.

All of this is my opinion, and I would consider it to be a big loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hackslack View Post
Except when other sports are played there, like lacrosse, its not a hockey rink... or when other major events come to the city, like the Brier, or World curling, or music awards. And except when concerts come, or during the Stampede, then its an entertainment venue. Or other rodeo events.

As you can probably see that, no, it very much will not be considered just a hockey rink. There are many, many other stakeholders that this project would benefit, not just the main stakeholder.
All of this. Couldn't possibly agree more. As a tax paying Albertan and Calgarian, this project has my full support, however far it needs to go. Also, Kenney fuckface, introduce a PST and raise taxes
__________________
Strong & Free

Mohkínstsis — 1.6 million people at the Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, 400 high-rises, a 300-metre SE to NW climb, over 1000 kilometres of pathways, with 20% of the urban area as parkland.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:47 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.