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  #921  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I agree. Moved.
The discussion is about the language policy of the federal government.
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  #922  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 3:10 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The discussion is about the language policy of the federal government.
If posts can be related directly to how the feds operate then sure, otherwise it's just more on language politics and QC v ROC thunderdome. Probably better off here anyway. Earlier discussions still maintained a connection to the topic in the other thread.
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  #923  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 3:16 PM
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I don't see any explanation other than bad faith, incompetence or both, for having only 75% of customers officers bilingual at YOW (Ottawa) when close to 100% are bilingual at YUL (Montreal) and even YQB (Quebec City).
The only flights are (were) from the US and UK, plus a seasonal flight to Frankfurt, how many French speakers arrive at YOW? I would think 10% would be on the high side. Hard to see how 75% of staff can’t serve 10 percent of customers. I would argue YUL and especially YQB are an example of the overuse of bilingual positions. A good number should be French only.
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  #924  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 3:32 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The only flights are (were) from the US and UK, plus a seasonal flight to Frankfurt, how many French speakers arrive at YOW? I would think 10% would be on the high side. Hard to see how 75% of staff can’t serve 10 percent of customers. I would argue YUL and especially YQB are an example of the overuse of bilingual positions. A good number should be French only.
Not that numbers are always the sole determinant of a right to service levels when the law is involved, but YOW is or was also served by a number of sun destination charter flights from Florida and the Caribbean. Lots of francophones on those flights for sure.

In any event the sky high % of bilingual positions at YUL and YQB is just another example of how the bilingualism burden in Canada is clearly borne mostly by Quebec and francophones, in spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary.

That's why all the belly-aching from some people is so grating.
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  #925  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 3:49 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
At some point there is someone in the hierarchy that needs to be able to read documents in both languages. But the low-level manager positions could easily be unilingual or have a lower level required (i.e. a French-speaking manager would supervise the French-speaking employees to review French submissions), which would actually be better than the current system of having "pass the test" anglos trying to muddle through.
I am not an insider but I am pretty sure that is what the system does already. It's just that that upper person in the hierarchy has to come from somewhere. Generally the further you climb up the ladder the more likely you will bump into bilingualism requirements. Hence why bilinguals are more likely to get promoted - though I know from entourage experience if you're unilingual and they really really like you they'll bend the rules and send you on language training at their expense so you can be promoted.

It's imperfect for sure (what bureaucratic process or policy isn't?) but it's far from being as grossly unfair as some are letting on.

Not saying this is your case but I do think that many of the critics are just people who think there shouldn't be any French language requirements at all, except maybe in cases of life or death.

There is another solution to this - as was proposed by the Laurendeau-Dunton bilingualism and biculturalism commission. But Canada under PET chose this model instead.

We could also pursue further decentralization and devolution to the provinces - or at least to Quebec which wouldn't have any problem providing services in French. Or even bilingually if we're being brutally honest.
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  #926  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
The only flights are (were) from the US and UK, plus a seasonal flight to Frankfurt, how many French speakers arrive at YOW? I would think 10% would be on the high side. Hard to see how 75% of staff can’t serve 10 percent of customers. I would argue YUL and especially YQB are an example of the overuse of bilingual positions. A good number should be French only.
YOW is the airport for the NCR, which, is the capital of an officially bilingual country. The NCR (including the Gatineau portion) should really be the poster child for bilingualism in the federation. I think there needs to be a high bar set at customs at YOW as far as bilingualism is concerned, even greater than usage figures suggest.

The bars set for service provision at the provincial level however (even in NB) should be lower. In NB, I would support regionally relevant bilingualism targets, ie higher in Fredericton (capital) and Moncton (percentage ratio of anglophones and francophones), but lower in Grand Manan (English only) and Shippagan (French only).
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  #927  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 5:25 PM
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recently I flew from Montreal to Chicoutimi, and on the flight, I was appalled that I could not get my 7Up served to me in English.
Even the bubbles made the wrong sound.
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  #928  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
YOW is the airport for the NCR, which, is the capital of an officially bilingual country. The NCR (including the Gatineau portion) should really be the poster child for bilingualism in the federation. I think there needs to be a high bar set at customs at YOW as far as bilingualism is concerned, even greater than usage figures suggest.

The bars set for service provision at the provincial level however (even in NB) should be lower. In NB, I would support regionally relevant bilingualism targets, ie higher in Fredericton (capital) and Moncton (percentage ratio of anglophones and francophones), but lower in Grand Manan (English only) and Shippagan (French only).
I think this is sensible.

With Ottawa specifically, there are factors continental and global that push English in a place like Quebec City that don't do the same for French in Ottawa. The government can't do much about the effects of that in the wider population, but for stuff it can control like bilingual federal-level services to the public, you're absolutely right that a place like Quebec City shouldn't be outshining the country's capital city.
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  #929  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
recently I flew from Montreal to Chicoutimi, and on the flight, I was appalled that I could not get my 7Up served to me in English.
Even the bubbles made the wrong sound.
You’d complain on a flight from Warsaw to Krakow that you’re forced to order your 7up in Polish? You’re the problem, not the other way around.
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  #930  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
You’d complain on a flight from Warsaw to Krakow that you’re forced to order your 7up in Polish? You’re the problem, not the other way around.
It's funny that you bring up this off-topic aside because the European Aviation Safety Agency's working language is English and it's generally recommended that staff onboard flights have knowledge of English as well as an additional European language depending on flight operator. No Polish necessary, really.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/faq/110282

https://www.easa.europa.eu/faq/45819
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  #931  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 6:00 PM
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Having flown between Warsaw and Krakow in recent years I can confirm that at least some of the flight attendants on my flights spoke English.
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  #932  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 6:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
You’d complain on a flight from Warsaw to Krakow that you’re forced to order your 7up in Polish? You’re the problem, not the other way around.
I think there is a very good chance that on an internal flight in Poland that you could be served by the flight attendant in English.

I know many Quebecois resent this, but English is (currently) the international lingua franca, with perhaps two billion people (at least claiming) they can speak it (to some degree).

It is what it is.
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  #933  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
It's funny that you bring up this off-topic aside because the European Aviation Safety Agency's working language is English and it's generally recommended that staff onboard flights have knowledge of English as well as an additional European language depending on flight operator. No Polish necessary, really.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/faq/110282

https://www.easa.europa.eu/faq/45819
And yet it would still be unthinkable for LOT to not having Polish service on board.

That's the point here.

Everyone knows that English is the main global lingua franca by a longshot.

We're not dumb and don't need to be reminded of it.

The 2nd point (related to the first) is some Canadians using this fact as a cudgel against other Canadians.
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  #934  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 6:41 PM
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I am a very strong supporter of francophone rights and empowerment across Canada.
What bothers me though is how the strongest and most sensitive advocates for these rights on SSP are often tone deaf and dismissive when it comes to the struggles faced by other minorities in Canada.
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  #935  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 8:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Not that numbers are always the sole determinant of a right to service levels when the law is involved, but YOW is or was also served by a number of sun destination charter flights from Florida and the Caribbean. Lots of francophones on those flights for sure.

In any event the sky high % of bilingual positions at YUL and YQB is just another example of how the bilingualism burden in Canada is clearly borne mostly by Quebec and francophones, in spite of all the rhetoric to the contrary.

That's why all the belly-aching from some people is so grating.
It is only a fair share of efforts: francophones learn English and anglophones tolerate French on cereal boxes (barely, but still...). This is how Canada sees bilinguism. You give a little, you gain a little...
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  #936  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2021, 10:41 PM
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I am not the one who started it, but I am certainly not going to let this BS slide.
fuck god forbid someone lets BS slide on skyscraperpage.com. Put down that dishrag jack someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET
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  #937  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
You’d complain on a flight from Warsaw to Krakow that you’re forced to order your 7up in Polish? You’re the problem, not the other way around.
yeah, but even the bubbles made the wrong sound. They only popped in French. i could have sworn that there was a faint noise asking me to vote for the Bloc Showercapois.

even a bonus smiley for you (since you love them so):
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  #938  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 6:37 PM
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fuck god forbid someone lets BS slide on skyscraperpage.com. Put down that dishrag jack someone is WRONG ON THE INTERNET
Everybody's responsible for mowing their own lawn, Vid.
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  #939  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 6:43 PM
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Originally Posted by MonctonRad View Post
YOW is the airport for the NCR, which, is the capital of an officially bilingual country. The NCR (including the Gatineau portion) should really be the poster child for bilingualism in the federation. I think there needs to be a high bar set at customs at YOW as far as bilingualism is concerned, even greater than usage figures suggest.
Sounds very Soviet. Create a Potemkin customs post to show off to Western dignitaries.
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  #940  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 6:48 PM
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Sounds very Soviet. Create a Potemkin customs post to show off to Western dignitaries.
This assumes there is zero demand for customs service in French at YOW, which is obviously false.
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