Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Good point. This is also true of much of the rest of Canada too though. Certainly Atlantic Canada but also rural and small town life in most of points west too. Is the boomers had it so much easier than millenials trope not a thing in French Canada? It certainly exists in Atlantic Canada even though Boomers mostly had to leave to find any job so houses being cheap wasn't relevant to most of them.

I do think it played out differently in Québec. In addition to what Big T said, in French Canada the rich people in your midst were out-group people: different schools, churches, social clubs, etc. Even in Arvida and Noranda that was the case.

In Florenceville NB sure most people were poor except for the McCains but those rich people were still part of the same in-group as the poors and not outsiders to their society.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interestingly, everyone here things we’re getting flooded with ridiculously and unsustainably enormous amounts of Fresh New Suckers every year… I suppose the situation in the GTA would be a shock!

(Our immigrant intake is indeed crazy high, just not compared to the RoC whose yearly numbers are even crazier)

Quebec was the first to speak up against Trudeau's ridiculous immigration ponzi scheme policies, while the ROC was still asleep at the wheel.

The fear of being called out as racist has had a chilling effect on discourse about immigration until very recently. ROC was actively practising self-censorship.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Quebec was the first to speak up against Trudeau's ridiculous immigration ponzi scheme policies, while the ROC was still asleep at the wheel.

The fear of being called out as racist has had a chilling effect on discourse about immigration until very recently. ROC was actively practising self-censorship.

I think other than the media elite it's pretty widely discussed now. I recall reading the open discussion here and trying to bring it up and getting shocked looks. Now it's a hot topic in a lot of circles.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Quebec was the first to speak up against Trudeau's ridiculous immigration ponzi scheme policies, while the ROC was still asleep at the wheel.

The fear of being called out as racist has had a chilling effect on discourse about immigration until very recently. ROC was actively practising self-censorship.

In Québec, we're being called racist all the time by some ROCers (not all of them, of course, but still by a bunch of vocal ones) for not drinking the multiculturalism Kool-Aid, so we just stop caring about what they think. That gives us the luxury to speak about a situation more freely without fearing the racist label. I feel bad for people outside Québec who would have wanted to raise the issue but felt pressured to keep quiet by fear of being labelled a racist.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

In Québec, we're being called racist all the time by some ROCers (not all of them, of course, but still by a bunch of vocal ones) for not drinking the multiculturalism Kool-Aid, so we just stop caring about what they think. That gives us the luxury to speak about a situation more freely without fearing the racist label. I feel bad for people outside Québec who would have wanted to raise the issue but felt pressured to keep quiet by fear of being labelled a racist.

The end result is that despite all the constant freaking out and finger-pointing at Québec from the ROC, at this point what the ROC thinks has zero credibility here. Whether the criticism is justified or not. No one in Québec gives a shit what the ROC thinks any more. They have cried wolf too many times.

[Acajack]

This horrible place...

https://twitter.com/JF_Martin007/sta...401360/photo/1

[Truenorth00]

I thought English was supposedly getting wiped out around the world.

The end of an era for the French language?

Nations reviewing their dependence on French reflects the deep divide between Paris and capitals across the Sahel – which could have long-term economic implications

....In a region rich with dozens of indigenous languages and dialects, French was successful as a unifying lingua franca after countries in the region gained independence from France in the 1960s. Algerian president Abdelmadjid Tebboune had considered the French language to be “a spoil of war”.

After the French put an end to their military presence and diminished their diplomatic presence, the coup-born authorities in the African Sahel now look to ending the influence of the French language in the region.

Following in the footsteps of neighbouring Mali, Burkina Faso’s new bill, which was months in the making, stipulates the demotion of the French language, relegating it to the rank of "working language,” according to Le Monde.


Nigerian political analyst, Nyossa Djimrao told Independent Arabia, “The decisions of Burkina Faso and Mali represent the end of an era during which this language served France, entrenching its influence over its former colonies in the African Sahel.”

“France imposed this language on its colonies, which is why I believe that the decision to abandon it is both revolutionary and beneficial. Such steps will be replicated by other countries like Niger, which is in complete political and diplomatic harmony with Ouagadougou and Bamako,” Djimrao added.

...In 2022, France was compelled to remove its forces from Mali, then Burkina Faso, and later Niger. It also declared the end of its Barkhane military campaign, which it waged in an attempt to minimize the influence of terrorist groups that perpetrate bloody attacks in the region.

Launched in 2013, the campaign did not succeed in achieving any progress in the fight against terrorist groups, which led countries of the region to place their bets on Russian private military company Wagner to contain these groups instead.

“Many citizens, particularly those in favour of the wave of changes taking place in the African Sahel, perceive dropping French, with all the trappings of Paris and what it represents as a welcome step,” Djimrao said. “The French government therefore has to accept this as a fait accompli, although its language will be considered of secondary importance and will not be completely excluded.”

The setbacks suffered by France and French diplomatic, cultural and military institutions are not confined to the Sahel. They extend to other countries such as South Africa and Algeria, both of which traded French for English.

These developments reflect the deep divide between Paris and capitals of countries in the African Sahel in the post-coup era. This shift could have economic repercussions, especially considering French exports to former African colonies in the last decade have declined to 5 percent, having previously stood at 8.7 per cent in the years following independence, according to official statistics.

....French analysts believe on the other hand that linguistic changes witnessed in the Sahel are unsurprising given the rise of the English language across the world. They note that French will continue to remain in use as a secondary language in these countries.

French is spoken by over a hundred million people on the African continent, which is home to around 1.2 billion people. France works on promoting of the French language through the OIF, which it views as an effective tool to achieve this end through cultural activities.

....

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2486607.html

Two takeaways from me.

1) Maybe the French should have taken the threat of Putin's thugs across Africa more seriously. Interesting, how a failed military campaign is creating real cultural impacts.

2) Quebec needs to start thinking a lot harder about where it will source French speaking immigrants 20-30 years from now as some of these countries de-emphasize French. Also, Quebec could end up in competition with France itself for the highest quality migrants.

[Acajack]

Comments:

No one with their head on straight has ever said that English was on its way to being wiped out.

French still has lots of legs in Africa, likely beyond this geopolitical era and who knows what comes after that. I mean, we still get French speakers from Vietnam and the French left there in the 1950s.

Quebec only needs a relatively small number of people to sustain its population, and France seems relatively unconcerned with issues of demographic collapse and if anything will be reducing the numbers of people they bring in. Quebec will also likely continue to attract the French themselves.

Is France's slow retreat from Africa, leaving more room there for Russia and China, really a good thing geopolitically?

The writer made a mistake when he talks about South Africa(?) abandoning French for English. When did this happen? 1715?

The British press can always be counted on for a bit of schadenfreude when it comes to French.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Comments:

No one with their head on straight has ever said that English was on its way to being wiped out.

You're forgetting the comments of a certain other member here who kept arguing that indigenous languages would replace English. Doesn't seem to be happening in Africa.

Originally Posted by Acajack

French still has lots of legs in Africa, likely beyond this geopolitical era and who knows what comes after that. I mean, we still get French speakers from Vietnam and the French left there in the 1950s.

The article reminded me of something my 60 yr old Algerian origin French teacher was saying. He said that he automatically switches between French and Arabic depending on the age of the person of he's talking to, with that dividing line being a point at which post-colonial Algeria started Arabization. That happened within the lifetime of this man. Don't see why similar policies today won't have the same effect 20-30 years from now. After all, how many French speakers are left in Vietnam now?

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec only needs a relatively small number of people to sustain its population, and France seems relatively unconcerned with issues of demographic collapse and if anything will be reducing the numbers of people they bring in. Quebec will also likely continue to attract the French themselves.

Both places still have TFR below replacement though. Better than anglo-Canada obviously. But they'll still need some level of immigration.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Is France's slow retreat from Africa, leaving more room there for Russia and China, really a good thing geopolitically?

Nobody said it was. This is pointed out as a failure of French foreign policy, that is now having second order effects that were less predictable. Should be noted, our participation in Mali, was also motivated in part with the desire to cooperate with France. So in some small way, this is our failure too.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The writer made a mistake when he talks about South Africa(?) abandoning French for English. When did this happen? 1715?

Probably an error. The article was mostly focused on the Sahel and West Africa.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The British press can always be counted on for a bit of schadenfreude when it comes to French.

Not sure how that changes the substance of what was being discussed.

[Acajack]

I'd be surprised if even if older than 60 Algerians would use French to communicate amongst themselves. Most would still use Arabic in spite of having come of age during a period of stronger Frenchification. I am sure they may have a higher degree of French proficiency than younger generations but still even under French domination Arabic was never truly replaced as the language most Algerians spoke amongst themselves.

[Acajack]

I also think that the days of boosting immigration in order to shore up one's GDP are rapidly coming to an end, as Canada's example to the world shows.

Sure there will still be some immigration in most western countries, even to France, but countries are definitely looking at other solutions now, including de-growth strategies even.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I thought English was supposedly getting wiped out around the world.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2486607.html

Two takeaways from me.

The only takeaway is that this is the usual bullshit, especially when written in a media called "Independent Arabia" (cough... give me a break!).

If French should have been wiped out in Africa, it would have been in the 1960s, shortly after independence, when anti-colonialism, Thirdworldism, and the USSSR and its international Communist project were very strong. Some nations tried (such as Mali, already), but quickly retreated (Mali returned to the CFA Franc and the Francophonie 10 years after having left it for instance).

Today, the French language in sub-Saharan Africa is so entrenched it's impossible to eradicate it, for the usual reasons: lack of a single unifying language other than French, French-speaking elites that will oppose removing French from public life (which would endanger their position), lack of money to publish school books in native African languages, easy access to French-language knowledge (books, media, Wikipedia, etc) vs lack of local African language modern cultural offering, need to communicate with fellow Francophone African nations.

Increasingly, there's also a growing generation for whom French is a native tongue, and not a 2nd language (in Côte d'Ivoire, Gabon, Congo, etc). How exactly do you remove the French language? By exterminating these African people??

Last but not least, the Sahel is the part of Francophone Africa where French is the least spoken, so there's certainly never been a "golden age" for the French language there, as the article ridiculously states. The Sahel is a backwater. This is not where the future of the French language in Africa is being written. The future of the French language in Africa takes place in Abidjan, Lomé, Douala, Yaoundé, Kinshasa, and other coastal areas. And its position there is stronger than it's ever been (and with an increasing number of native speakers there). The Sahel will just follow whatever is decided in those coastal countries, same as Yukon or Nunavut will simply follow what's decided in Vancouver, Toronto or Montréal.

For example, Côte d'Ivoire, and its economic capital Abidjan, is the natural outlet of Burkina Faso. 4 million Burkinabé already live there, millions more will come as Burkina Faso experiences overpopulation and civil war. French is key to find a job and integrate in Côte d'Ivoire and Abidjan. What will be the strongest element in Burkinabé people's decision to learn French or not: what a non-elected junta without money decides, or what the forces of capitalism in Côte d'Ivoire decide? Poser la question c'est y répondre.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The writer made a mistake when he talks about South Africa(?) abandoning French for English. When did this happen? 1715?

The two writers were out of their depth. Apparently intending to write a "brûlot" to please their Arab nationalist leadership, who cannot stand the fact French is still used in Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia more than 60 years after independence.

French was never used in South Africa (the writers probably made a confusion with Rwanda, which tells you something about their lack of knowledge of geography...). As for Algeria, French is being replaced with standard Arabic there (a language as foreign to people there as French), not with English. And despite 50 years of "Arabization" policy, the French language is still widely used in Algeria, to the horror of Arab nationalists and Islamists. Only this week I was checking some serious information on the website of the Interior Ministry of Algeria, webpage written in... French!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd be surprised if even if older than 60 Algerians would use French to communicate amongst themselves. Most would still use Arabic in spite of having come of age during a period of stronger Frenchification. I am sure they may have a higher degree of French proficiency than younger generations but still even under French domination Arabic was never truly replaced as the language most Algerians spoke amongst themselves.

Algerians code switch between French and Algerian Arabic. Standard Arabic (the language that the nationalists in power since 1962 have tried to impose in government life, schools and the media since the 1970s, is as different from Algerian Arabic as English is different from Dutch). Algerian Arabic is full of French words (which is not surprising after more than 130 years of daily contact), to the point Arabic speakers from the Gulf often mock the Algerians for speaking "French" when they speak Algerian Arabic.

I was discussing with a guy with a university degree in electricity from Algiers two years ago, and he told me all the words they use for electrical appliances in Algerian Arabic are French, so when he meets professionals from the Middle East, he's unable to discuss electricity issues in Arabic, because he doesn't know the words in standard Arabic (words such as "fusible", "transformateur" (or "transfo" in slang), "disjoncteur", etc... I'm not even sure you guys in Québec use these words due to Anglo-influence, but people in Algeria use them, because you don't erase 130 years of history just like that).

Nobody in Algeria speaks "just" French, or entire sentences in French, but people either speak Algerian Arabic (which contains many French word), or code-switch between both languages (starting a sentence in Algerian Arabic, then continuing in French, then ending in Arabic, which is typical of Algiers in particular).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also think that the days of boosting immigration in order to shore up one's GDP are rapidly coming to an end, as Canada's example to the world shows.

Sure there will still be some immigration in most western countries, even to France, but countries are definitely looking at other solutions now, including de-growth strategies even.

I'm not so sure about that... Only today I was reading an article in the Financial Times by Janan Ganesh (that UK and London booster-in-chief) lauding the fact the UK is thriving on immigration, has now more foreign-born people than the US, and received 1.3 million immigrants last year (the insanity of this figure apparently doesn't shock him, and is even a source of pride for him). So you know...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The only takeaway is that this is the usual bullshit, especially when written in a media called "Independent Arabia" (cough... give me a break!).

If French should have been wiped out in Africa, it would have been in the 1960s, shortly after independence, when anti-colonialism, Thirdworldism, and the USSSR and its international Communist project were very strong. Some nations tried (such as Mali, already), but quickly retreated (Mali returned to the CFA Franc and the Francophonie 10 years after having left it for instance).

Today, the French language in sub-Saharan Africa is so entrenched it's impossible to eradicate it, for the usual reasons: lack of a single unifying language other than French, French-speaking elites that will oppose removing French from public life (which would endanger their position), lack of money to publish school books in native African languages, easy access to French-language knowledge (books, media, Wikipedia, etc) vs lack of local African language modern cultural offering, need to communicate with fellow Francophone African nations.

Increasingly, there's also a growing generation for whom French is a native tongue, and not a 2nd language (in Côte d'Ivoire, Gabon, Congo, etc). How exactly do you remove the French language? By exterminating these African people??

Last but not least, the Sahel is the part of Francophone Africa where French is the least spoken, so there's certainly never been a "golden age" for the French language there, as the article ridiculously states. The Sahel is a backwater. This is not where the future of the French language in Africa is being written. The future of the French language in Africa takes place in Abidjan, Lomé, Douala, Yaoundé, Kinshasa, and other coastal areas. And its position there is stronger than it's ever been (and with an increasing number of native speakers there). The Sahel will just follow whatever is decided in those coastal countries, same as Yukon or Nunavut will simply follow what's decided in Vancouver, Toronto or Montréal.

For example, Côte d'Ivoire, and its economic capital Abidjan, is the natural outlet of Burkina Faso. 4 million Burkinabé already live there, millions more will come as Burkina Faso experiences overpopulation and civil war. French is key to find a job and integrate in Côte d'Ivoire and Abidjan. What will be the strongest element in Burkinabé people's decision to learn French or not: what a non-elected junta without money decides, or what the forces of capitalism in Côte d'Ivoire decide? Poser la question c'est y répondre.

All your same reasoning here was exactly what you claimed was wrong when I discussed English in India. You're full of it.

[New Brisavoine]

You cannot seriously compare a country of 1.4 billion people with several millennia-old written culture that predates the arrival of the Europeans, with small African countries of 10 to 30 million people with little to no written culture before the arrival of the Europeans, and neither the depth nor the vast numbers of India. The only country that can remotely compare to India in sub-Saharan Africa is Ethiopia.

[Truenorth00]

You fail to understand the role of English in India and how similar it was to French in Africa. Especially in southern India where Hindi is about as foreign to them as any European language. If the argument is that English is going to disappear because Indians are going to be assertive with their local languages (something I disputed because of what I have observed with my own relatives), then the same logic should hold with French in Africa. Your logic flip flops based on whatever suits your argument. That's why I said you're full of it.

The big difference between India and Africa? Indians aren't actively hostile against the Brits today, the way that Africans are turning on the French. Use of English is much less of a political issue in India than French in Africa. India has no backlash like this:

• Video Link

And let's be honest the use of French is highly tied to economic connections. The end of the CFA system may well mean the end of French on Africa. No different than French in Vietnam. By contrast, English in India has persisted largely because it's valuable economically in the post-colonial era.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

French was never used in South Africa (the writers probably made a confusion with Rwanda, which tells you something about their lack of knowledge of geography...). As for Algeria, French is being replaced with standard Arabic there (a language as foreign to people there as French), not with English. And despite 50 years of "Arabization" policy, the French language is still widely used in Algeria, to the horror of Arab nationalists and Islamists. Only this week I was checking some serious information on the website of the Interior Ministry of Algeria, webpage written in... French!

Not officially, no. However there were a significant number of French speaking Huguenots that moved to South Africa under Dutch Colonial rule in the late 1600s. At the time the Cape Colony population was strictly regulated to maintain it as a more of a replenishment point for shipping than a true settlement. Most were involved in agriculture as lands around Franschhoek (French Corner) and Stellenbosch were opening up, and in particular with the wine-making industry (the Dutch were never great at it).

However the use of French was only really tolerated by the Dutch and all schooling etc. had to be conducted in Dutch / later Afrikaans. A lot of familiar Afrikaans surnames have their history in French such as De Klerk (Le Clercq) and Du Preez (Du Pre) while others remain as is (du Plessis, du Toit). Most became fully integrated with Afrikaner society and made up at least some of the settlers leaving the Cape Colony during the Great Trek, while others remained in the Western Cape under British rule. There's a monument in the Johannesburg Botanical Gardens close to where I lived commemorating the Hugenuot Trekkers.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If the argument is that English is going to disappear

You are inventing things in your own head. Nobody wrote that in this thread.