NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by CIA

Fancy new train hall, but same old shit at platform level. Lipstick on a pig?

Would love to see what's being done in ways of capacity improvements.

Lipstick would be applying new paint and calling it a day. Necessary passenger improvements aren't trivial; nothing to sneeze at. In any case, these two goals aren't mutually exclusive: we can have both.

Capacity improvements are largely administrative (refusal to plan for through running) and infrastructure (MSG makes platform level improvements hard.
The Dolans think they have a god-given right to remain, and Cuomo doesn't seem interested in pushing the issue, for now.

Clearing out the clutter that is the current Amtrak/LIRR ticketing facilities is a worthwhile step; most importantly, I fail to see how it precludes future track-level improvements. If anything, increasing revenue and better utilizing space would make future improvements simpler.

[citybooster]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Do you guys even read the articles?


Moving Amtrak from Penn station has to help alleviate some congestion.
Widening the new LIRR concourse at 33rd Street to three-times its current 25 feet (which will also have higher ceilings) has to alleviate some congestion
Having LIRR platform access from Moynihan has to alleviate some congestion
Having some LIRR go to Grand Central with East Side Access has to alleviate some congestion

Well said. Not perfect but a lot better than the current mess. I do want once Farley is completed for the pressure to be put on the Dolans to move the hell out once their lease is done. But if you get this done getting Moynihan completed, there has already been so much improvement the impetus will be there to give us a Penn Station worthy of the city of New York.... like streetscaper said, these ARE significant improvements hardly comparable to merely putting lipstick on a pig.

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by citybooster

I do want once Farley is completed for the pressure to be put on the Dolans to move the hell out once their lease is done.

Well, the problem is that the pressure won't come from Cuomo, as things currently stand.

[TonyNYC]

Originally Posted by phoenixboi08

Well, the problem is that the pressure won't come from Cuomo, as things currently stand.

If the Station is basically being rebuilt(now with both Amtrak and LIRR) across the avenue at the Farley post office,which should have been the idea from the very beginning, why would there be a need to tear down MSG?? Once Moynihan/Penn is complete.. the reason for having MSG torn down to rebuild Penn Station is gone!

MSG and the Dolans are going nowhere..New rail station across the street,and they'll be the center of the new dynamic Penn/ Hudson yards area. I see no reason for them to be pushed out or leave now.

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

If the Station is basically being rebuilt(now with both Amtrak and LIRR) across the avenue at the Farley post office,which should have been the idea from the very beginning, why would there be a need to tear down MSG?? Once Moynihan/Penn is complete.. the reason for having MSG torn down to rebuild Penn Station is gone!

MSG and the Dolans are going nowhere..New rail station across the street,and they'll be the center of the new dynamic Penn/ Hudson yards area. I see no reason for them to be pushed out or leave now.

Because improvements need to take place at track-level...
MSG is in the way of that.

[citybooster]

Originally Posted by phoenixboi08

Well, the problem is that the pressure won't come from Cuomo, as things currently stand.

What I think Cuomo would prefer is that the Dolans move MSG. But for now, getting Moynihan done plus whatever work that can be done to at least improve the situation at Penn Station is most important. If it can be done as hoped for by the end of 2020, there is still time to try to push the Dolans on a move of MSG. At least it's optimistically how I see Cuomo's reluctance to press the issue at the current time.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

If the Station is basically being rebuilt(now with both Amtrak and LIRR) across the avenue at the Farley post office,which should have been the idea from the very beginning, why would there be a need to tear down MSG?? Once Moynihan/Penn is complete.. the reason for having MSG torn down to rebuild Penn Station is gone!

MSG and the Dolans are going nowhere..New rail station across the street,and they'll be the center of the new dynamic Penn/ Hudson yards area. I see no reason for them to be pushed out or leave now.

Probably nothing will happen till 2023 when the permit runs out. I hope it is not renewed. Time for them to find a new great spot.

[streetscaper]

In addition to the new Farley/Moynihan expansion for Penn Station on the last page of this thread....

Here is a new proposal set forth by the Practice for Architecture and Urbanism to transform/repurpose the existing Madison Square Garden into a grand new train hall for Penn Station



I encourage you to read the NYTimes article as well with more interactive graphics
































Original subway entrances and staircases can remain

Its passive heat and cooling system would lower operating costs and let smoke escape through the top in an emergency. Independent cost consultants estimated the price tag to be around $1.5 billion.

...But equally important, “recycling” what’s there allows for the building of an ambitious new station at minimal cost and disruption. We could restore a gateway to New York with a scale consistent with other great public spaces in the city.

...The Garden, which is getting old and has problems of its own, has compelling reasons to move. Given fair incentives, its owners, who have shown themselves to be reasonable and civic-minded, could be willing to move the arena 800 feet to the west end of the Farley Building, where there is over one million square feet of underutilized space

...We would take off its unsightly concrete cladding, demolish the interior, rebuild the mezzanines and vertical circulation to the platforms below, and remove many of the support columns on the train platforms that passengers have to dodge today. The concrete cladding would be replaced by a “double skin,” a blastproof glass facade that would allow in light and views while enabling passive heating and cooling.

...We propose that the ceiling, which is the roof of the existing arena, feature a map of New York to orient travelers, a contemporary update of the stars on the ceiling of Grand Central.

[mrnyc]

oh boy -- iz juz like teh forum mall ceiling in vegas baby!

[Speculator]

Originally Posted by streetscaper

Okay so Ticketing and platform access for Amtrak and LIRR is moving to Moynihan

Will the Amtrak and LIRR sections of the current Penn station remain Amtrak and LIRR sections, respectively, after the overhaul?

So that there will be two ticketing areas and multiple platform access points for Amtrak and LIRR in both Moynihan and the current Penn Station, right?

Anyone know?

[NYguy]

^ There will be multiple access points, similar to the way NJ Transit currently operates entrance points both at the main 8th Ave concourse, and the "newer" 7th Ave concourse.




http://therealdeal.com/2016/11/01/vornado-post-roth/

Envisioning a post-Roth Vornado: Will the REIT chief leave a void that’s impossible to fill?





November 01, 2016
By Hiten Samtani and Will Parker

West Side story

Vornado’s “big Kahuna,” Roth said earlier this year, is the repositioning of its Penn Plaza portfolio. Through stealth assemblage plays over the years, the company now controls more than 9 million square feet of office and retail space in the gritty shopping district. Penn Plaza has recently begun to shake off its rusty brand, in part due to the emergence of Midtown South as a tech tenant haven and the rise of Hudson Yards.

The REIT will soon begin renovations of its two major towers next door to Penn Station — One and Two Penn Plaza — both dated office skyscrapers that it plans to completely redesign and connect together, forming a 4.2 million-square-foot mega complex.

Roth recently told investors he hopes to push office rents in his Penn Plaza buildings from the mid-$50s per foot up into the $80s, more on par with new developments two blocks west at Hudson Yards. And much of the redesign, judging by how Vornado executives have described it on an earnings call, seems set on just that: making the buildings look more like their sprightlier Far West Side neighbors.

In March, Danish starchitect Bjarke Ingels released renderings for the new 2 Penn Plaza, a glass-and-steel tower with an undulating canopy at its base inspired by the iconic photograph of Marilyn Monroe posing in a white dress atop a blowing subway grate.

Sprucing up the Penn Plaza district is something Vornado has been obsessed with for years. More than a decade ago, Vornado and Related were tapped to redevelop the Farley Post Office into a train hall. The partners turned around and proposed something bolder: a $14 billion redevelopment that would have also transplanted Madison Square Garden across the street and replaced it with two skyscrapers, one taller than the Empire State building, and ten million square feet of office space. Then, in 2008, Gov. Eliot Spitzer resigned from office in the wake of his prostitution scandal, and plans for the new station and stadium were shelved.

“It just broke our hearts,” Roth said at a Columbia University talk in 2010. “Every time you go into Penn Station you should be a little bitter. Spit on the floor.”

By early 2016, Gov. Andrew Cuomo had pushed Vornado and Related out of the project altogether. But this September, Cuomo brought them back in the fold for a scaled-down version of the plan. In collaboration with the construction firm Skanska, the two developers will transform the Beaux Arts-style Farley Post Office into a train hall for the Long Island Rail Road, adding hundreds of thousands of square feet of commercial space along the way. The partners are expected to invest $600 million in the $1.6 billion project, which is slated for completion by 2020.

“We’re at the size now where [Roth] doesn’t need me and I don’t need him,” Related’s Ross told TRD in October. “But when we do something we do it because it works for both of us. And the fact is, we trust each other and we don’t let ego stand in the way of doing something, because certainly we both have the size and scale to do anything.”

A modernized Penn Station would be a boon to Vornado’s Penn Plaza bets. But observers question whether it could ever compete for top-tier tenants with Hudson Yards, which has signed the likes of L’Oreal, SAP, KKR and Time Warner.

“New product will always trade for a premium over existing product,” said JLL’s Rob Martin, who helped broker the Foot Locker flagship’s move to Vornado’s 330 West 34th Street. “But given the location, if [Roth] is able to modernize the buildings, he’ll be able to get a premium. Will it be on par with new construction? The market will tell.”

[Submariner]

“Every time you go into Penn Station you should be a little bitter. Spit on the floor.”

Boy, that really sums it up doesn't it?

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Submariner

“Every time you go into Penn Station you should be a little bitter. Spit on the floor.”

Boy, that really sums it up doesn't it?

Yes it does. Penn Station, the stepchild of transit centers in New York. You wanna be even more depressed about it, walk around Grand Central. But things are gonna get better.

[JSsocal]

Moving the garden is important, but two penn plaza should really be demolished for penn, its air rights transferred to any number of sites.

[BBMW]

Penn Station, in anything even vaguely resembling it's original incarnation, will never be rebuilt. Why? The Madison Square Garden Corporation owns the land on which the Garden sits. Even if the city won't renew it's operation permit, if forced, the company will tear down MSG, and build an office tower to replace it. Under no circumstances will they give up the property voluntarily. And if the city wanted to take it by eminent domain, they'd have to pay MSG it's fair market value, given it's development potential. The city isn't going to come up with that money.

A little old, but topical:

http://ny.curbed.com/2013/5/13/10244...forced-to-move

[C.]

Originally Posted by BBMW

Penn Station, in anything even vaguely resembling it's original incarnation, will never be rebuilt. Why? The Madison Square Garden Corporation owns the land on which the Garden sits. Even if the city won't renew it's operation permit, if forced, the company will tear down MSG, and build an office tower to replace it. Under no circumstances will they give up the property voluntarily. And if the city wanted to take it by eminent domain, they'd have to pay MSG it's fair market value, given it's development potential. The city isn't going to come up with that money.

A little old, but topical:

http://ny.curbed.com/2013/5/13/10244...forced-to-move

"MSG owns the land and the building, where it has been operating for 45 years as a sports and entertainment complex."

Huh, is this true? How did I not know this? If they own the land, why do they need to keep renewing their permit from the city to operate?

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by CIA

"MSG owns the land and the building, where it has been operating for 45 years as a sports and entertainment complex."

Huh, is this true? How did I not know this? If they own the land, why do they need to keep renewing their permit from the city to operate?

My guess is that it's because MSG Management only own the air rights over the station (and a portion of the railyards?). Thus, the city only gives them a Special-Use Permit, since to do otherwise would infringe on the rights of Amtrak and the City (etc) who also own the infrastructure (e.g. property) below.

[NYguy]

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-penn-station/

The question of why city planners limited the Garden in the first place is not explicitly answered by the original document, though those familiar with the commission’s practices said it was standard at the time.

Mr. Stringer said the limit was imposed “largely out of concern” that the day might come when the station was no longer as underused as it seemed then. “The commission was correct,” Mr. Stringer said, “ridership through Penn Station has more than tripled since 1963 and is now well over capacity.”

It is possible to read the document and conclude that a 50-year term was chosen because Madison Square Garden Center Inc., the corporate predecessor to the Dolan family’s present-day Madison Square Garden Company, did not own the arena but instead held a 50-year lease from the Pennsylvania Railroad Company. Today, however, the company owns the property outright, as it or its predecessors have since 1985.

http://www.billboard.com/biz/article...ot-an-eviction

The New York City Council’s vote Wednesday that Madison Square Garden must within 10 years cease operating at its current site above Penn Station, its home for 45 years, is not good news for an arena that is just completing a nearly $1 billion transformation, but also does not mean that MSG must vacate the premises by 2023.

Still, the vote is hardly an eviction notice, but rather the council voted on a zoning permit for MSG to operate an arena that has 2,500 seats or more (Madison Square Garden’s capacity is about 20,000, adjacent Theater at Madison Square Garden holds about 5,600). MSG owns the building and the land, a source familiar with the situation tells Billboard.biz, so if the arena did not exist at its current site, MSG would still have the right as the land owners to build an office building and/or run a business there with no special permit requirement.

The city's own plan involved removing the arena and replacing it with office towers (and a rebuilt Penn Station underneath. If MSG doesn't get a renewed permit from the city, it will have no way of hosting the Knicks, Rangers, and any of the daily arena activities that take place. No way they would want to lose out on that income. Beyond that, the city owns all of the zoning keys, including what types of buildings can go on that land, and the form they would take. It's a game of chicken, but there's a reason they say you can't beat city hall. I'm sure the city doesn't want to lose those events either, but it has the upper hand here, as does the state.















Other early plans...

[mrnyc]

they really have to pin down an alternate site and make it attractive before going on about booting out msg. the city needs its big, flexible arena too.

[phoenixboi08]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

they really have to pin down an alternate site and make it attractive before going on about booting out msg. the city needs its big, flexible arena too.

My bet is that land cleared by relocating the PABT slightly west (why I favor the Pelli proposal) will be offered as a trade.

Nothing other than a hunch, but certainly a non-zero chance.