PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by therealdawk

If I'm not mistaken Steve Keely was on Good Day this morning reporting on a multi-shooting somewhere near here. He did comment on how the area was in the process of major redevelopment but that didn't deter last night's shooting.

Yep. Not surprising at all. Those projects need to be torn down and the residents need to be spread out and relocated somewhere else outside the city. It’s been tit for tat warfare there going back generations. People moving into The Poplar and the surrounding area think that area isn’t active cause of all the new development but Richard Allen and Penntown have shootouts a few times a year.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Yep. Not surprising at all. Those projects need to be torn down and the residents need to be spread out and relocated somewhere else outside the city. It’s been tit for tat warfare there going back generations. People moving into The Poplar and the surrounding area think that area isn’t active cause of all the new development but Richard Allen and Penntown have shootouts a few times a year.

Not gonna lie, what you said is exactly why I've been cautiously optimistic about this development and everything else currently going up between 6th, Broad, Spring Garden, and Girard. That area is perfect for development, and I'm happy to see it fill in (at least up to 9th Street); however, more needs to be done to quell the level of crime coming from those two sets of projects. IMO, both need to be demolished and replaced with something akin to what's rising on the site of the former Norris Apartments off of Temple's campus.

It should be seen as a huge policy failure that the PHA and other agencies allowed most public housing to be concentrated in North and West Philadelphia. According to what I've read, East Poplar was a nice integrated neighborhood teeming with life in the days before much of it was destroyed in the name of urban "renewal". Additionally, Philadelphia shoulders an outsized public housing burden relative to the rest of the region. As we move into the future, the PHA should be dismantled (they destroy Philadelphia's urban fabric, only to replace it with less-dense housing with ridiculous amounts of parking) while the suburban counties pick up some of their slack on providing public housing.

[chimpskibot]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Not gonna lie, what you said is exactly why I've been cautiously optimistic about this development and everything else currently going up between 6th, Broad, Spring Garden, and Girard. That area is perfect for development, and I'm happy to see it fill in (at least up to 9th Street); however, more needs to be done to quell the level of crime coming from those two sets of projects. IMO, both need to be demolished and replaced with something akin to what's rising on the site of the former Norris Apartments off of Temple's campus.

It should be seen as a huge policy failure that the PHA and other agencies allowed most public housing to be concentrated in North and West Philadelphia. According to what I've read, East Poplar was a nice integrated neighborhood teeming with life in the days before much of it was destroyed in the name of urban "renewal". Additionally, Philadelphia shoulders an outsized public housing burden relative to the rest of the region. As we move into the future, the PHA should be dismantled (they destroy Philadelphia's urban fabric, only to replace it with less-dense housing with ridiculous amounts of parking) while the suburban counties pick up some of their slack on providing public housing.

The suburbs will never allow that to happen. PHA really needs to work towards a public-private ownership model, where some units are sold as condos/townhouses to a wide range of income levels and some units are rentals for lower income individuals. They are making strides with their workforce housing, but the only way to dilute poverty and slums is to introduce mixed income residents. I think now is the only time this would not lead to disinvestment and flight as the housing market is tight.

[Raja]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Not gonna lie, what you said is exactly why I've been cautiously optimistic about this development and everything else currently going up between 6th, Broad, Spring Garden, and Girard. That area is perfect for development, and I'm happy to see it fill in (at least up to 9th Street); however, more needs to be done to quell the level of crime coming from those two sets of projects. IMO, both need to be demolished and replaced with something akin to what's rising on the site of the former Norris Apartments off of Temple's campus.

It should be seen as a huge policy failure that the PHA and other agencies allowed most public housing to be concentrated in North and West Philadelphia. According to what I've read, East Poplar was a nice integrated neighborhood teeming with life in the days before much of it was destroyed in the name of urban "renewal". Additionally, Philadelphia shoulders an outsized public housing burden relative to the rest of the region. As we move into the future, the PHA should be dismantled (they destroy Philadelphia's urban fabric, only to replace it with less-dense housing with ridiculous amounts of parking) while the suburban counties pick up some of their slack on providing public housing.

Correct. Surrounding these projects with development is not going to stop the violence. There’s a similar tit-for-tat feud between the Hawthorne housing at 13th/Fitz and the Queen Village housing at 4th/Carpenter that generates the bulk of the violent crime in 19147 and has resulted in a couple of very sad murders recently. The high incomes and (at this point completed) gentrification of Bella Vista and QV have not solved the problem. IMO “projects” as we know it should be eradicated entirely in favor of diffuse Section 8.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by chimpskibot

The suburbs will never allow that to happen. PHA really needs to work towards a public-private ownership model, where some units are sold as condos/townhouses to a wide range of income levels and some units are rentals for lower income individuals. They are making strides with their workforce housing, but the only way to dilute poverty and slums is to introduce mixed income residents. I think now is the only time this would not lead to disinvestment and flight as the housing market is tight.

I completely agree with everything here. Scattered-site housing is the best way to do subsidized housing, and it should be the only way that the city does public housing. I also agree that the suburbs would never allow public housing in their communities, although it absolutely needs to be compelled through federal edict (also unlikely). It makes little sense that Philadelphia's population makes up roughly 1/5th of its MSA population, yet it and other dense areas in the suburbs (Chester, Norristown, Bristol, etc.) have to bear a significant portion of the region's public housing.

Originally Posted by Raja

IMO “projects” as we know it should be eradicated entirely in favor of diffuse Section 8.

Agreed 100%. I would love for the city to take Atlanta's approach and demolish all public housing complexes, replacing them with mixed-use and mixed-income neighborhoods. Concentrated poverty is a recipe for disaster.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I completely agree with everything here. Scattered-site housing is the best way to do subsidized housing, and it should be the only way that the city does public housing. I also agree that the suburbs would never allow public housing in their communities, although it absolutely needs to be compelled through federal edict (also unlikely). It makes little sense that Philadelphia's population makes up roughly 1/5th of its MSA population, yet it and other dense areas in the suburbs (Chester, Norristown, Bristol, etc.) have to bear a significant portion of the region's public housing.

Not to dive too deep into the weeds in this discussion, there is something I think should be added: the reason why section 8 voucher users tend to end up in the exact same areas is that it is legal in the suburban counties to refuse them even if it's enough money to cover the rent. In Philadelphia, since the 1980s, it's been illegal to do so based on voucher-use. HOWEVER, there is zero enforcement of apartments refusing them, along with a lot of people not knowing their rights.

Since there is no enforcement, you can have groups like the University City Town home protesters say that the 'vouchers' aren't enough due to the possibility of being denied housing.

It's a circular problem, and like most problems in the city, there is not enough political will or brain-power to actually come up with a proper solution to have a positive outcome.

To put it in perspective, the entire states of NJ, NY, DE, and MD have laws prohibiting SOI-discrimination at the state level along with city-level laws. IMO, it's had positive effects on other metros areas with, as others have pointed out, poverty not being hyper-concentrated in specific towns or neighborhoods.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Raja

OMG the privilege! Y'all have clearly never had the misfortune of learning, 14 hours into the work day, that you'll need to pull an all-nighter at the office, causing you to run panicking to the nearest open coffee shop for a redeye, which at 10 PM can only be a Starbucks because all the local coffee shops have closed.

LOL I agree with everything that's been said in both directions--yes, it's not a good look for the city but also no, it's not some harbinger for the decline of retail in Center City writ large--but this comment just rubbed me the wrong way. The hardworking folks at Jeff and elsewhere don't need to be judged for making a Starbucks run every now and again.

Sorry, didn't mean to cause any real offense. Does your office not have coffee?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Not to dive too deep into the weeds in this discussion, there is something I think should be added: the reason why section 8 voucher users tend to end up in the exact same areas is that it is legal in the suburban counties to refuse them even if it's enough money to cover the rent. In Philadelphia, since the 1980s, it's been illegal to do so based on voucher-use. HOWEVER, there is zero enforcement of apartments refusing them, along with a lot of people not knowing their rights.

Since there is no enforcement, you can have groups like the University City Town home protesters say that the 'vouchers' aren't enough due to the possibility of being denied housing.

It's a circular problem, and like most problems in the city, there is not enough political will or brain-power to actually come up with a proper solution to have a positive outcome.

To put it in perspective, the entire states of NJ, NY, DE, and MD have laws prohibiting SOI-discrimination at the state level along with city-level laws. IMO, it's had positive effects on other metros areas with, as others have pointed out, poverty not being hyper-concentrated in specific towns or neighborhoods.

On top of that, the barriers for small investors (like me) to qualify for accepting section 8 housings make it harder to implement. I don't have the time to sit through classes and jump through other hoops to be certified to accept those vouchers. When someone reaches out about a rental of mine and mentions section 8, there's really nothing I can do for them.

Even if I had the time to figure that all out, the fact that the city makes it hard for a landlord to have much of any rights over tenants makes any additional oversight a huge disincentive to rent to those with government assistance (even though I know that this assistance means they have a steady stream of income).

Just another factor that hurts the program.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

I honestly don't know what it is about Americans (and especially Philadelphians), but we are a disgusting, selfish society. Rest assured, these will be obliterated. I honestly can't think of one nice thing that isn't vandalized or destroyed by the general public in Philly.

My quick 2 cents. People are awful in general, but yea Americans are worse. I'm not sure if Philly is worse than other American cities in terms of that though, maybe?

A great example of America. I was at the steps a week prior.

Tourist Damages Rome’s Spanish Steps by Pushing a Scooter Down Them
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/09/w...20six%20months.

And yea, public restrooms in Philadelphia will not go well for obvious reasons. The one in Madison Square Park in NYC is almost always closed because of how it's treated.

Originally Posted by Redddog

I give it a week before they are so disgusting, no one could step foot inside.

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Including the The Shofuso Japanese House and Garden recently, which really broke my heart for a lot of reasons

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Same. I got an email about it and it made me mad/sad. Some people are so pathetic and low life that they have to destroy something this is good. Vandalism and lack of respect for other peoples property is what is wrong with some of these people.

The Shofuso Japanese House and Garden is sickening, and frankly I think perps should be punished to the fullest extent.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I completely agree with everything here. Scattered-site housing is the best way to do subsidized housing, and it should be the only way that the city does public housing. ...

Agreed 100%. I would love for the city to take Atlanta's approach and demolish all public housing complexes, replacing them with mixed-use and mixed-income neighborhoods. Concentrated poverty is a recipe for disaster.

Also agree, and the public/private ownership. Amazing that many decades later, PHA still makes the same mistakes. Scattered site housing (if maintained) is the best approach in a big economically diverse city like Philadelphia.

I don't know if a study exists, but I wonder if poverty has gotten even more concentrated in select areas of Philadelphia due to the massive wave of redevelopment in many parts of the city.

[Raja]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Sorry, didn't mean to cause any real offense. Does your office not have coffee?

Yeah we have a Keurig for at night but I mean… is any there any good coffee anywhere that comes from a Keurig? As a fellow coffee snob I know you agree with this lol.

But anyways it’s cool dude, like I’m not actually offended obviously, it was just annoying to hear “you shouldn’t care, it’s just Starbucks, and if you care you’re lame” over and over again. Some of the fault lies with corporate policy, but we should all care that a retailer is so overrun with drug use, and its employees so traumatized by it, that it has to close. The Philly Shrug gets me all emotional.

[el don]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Not to dive too deep into the weeds in this discussion, there is something I think should be added: the reason why section 8 voucher users tend to end up in the exact same areas is that it is legal in the suburban counties to refuse them even if it's enough money to cover the rent. In Philadelphia, since the 1980s, it's been illegal to do so based on voucher-use. HOWEVER, there is zero enforcement of apartments refusing them, along with a lot of people not knowing their rights.

Since there is no enforcement, you can have groups like the University City Town home protesters say that the 'vouchers' aren't enough due to the possibility of being denied housing.

It's a circular problem, and like most problems in the city, there is not enough political will or brain-power to actually come up with a proper solution to have a positive outcome.

To put it in perspective, the entire states of NJ, NY, DE, and MD have laws prohibiting SOI-discrimination at the state level along with city-level laws. IMO, it's had positive effects on other metros areas with, as others have pointed out, poverty not being hyper-concentrated in specific towns or neighborhoods.

Do you happen to know if it's reduced crime?

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by el don

Do you happen to know if it's reduced crime?

I personally believe from a socioeconomic quality-of-life perspective, it is absolutely an improvement. Now does that translate into reduced crime? I'm unsure. I'm also under the belief that enforcement every where is very lax, and like I said, frankly most people are unaware or unwilling to go through the process of 'fighting back' against a landlord who flat out says no because of the voucher use.

To come full circle on this conversation... I absolutely laughed out loud when I saw this post on my explore page of instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/CfcXhr9JWv0/

If you want to feel like you’re in Miami while you’re in Philly, THIS is your place

I mean this is the exact area we are talking about needing to be redeveloped and there's still people out there who have a way different opinion getting thousands of likes comparing it to Miami haha... The pool on top of the Poplar does look great though. Hopefully the buildings next to it get under way soon.

[Phillyguy215]

I do work for a vending company that gets contracts from Aramark, I’d be happy to get you guys office coffee/water/vending!!!! I mean, we are the official vending company for the Eagles, currently.

[EastSideHBG]

But on the flipside spreading Section 8 around can create its own set of issues and the deep into the game folks do not change, they just bring the problems with them and start to victimize those around them. Then they spread the word and before you know it you have some major issues on your hands that the local residents and police may not be equipped to deal with.

It's a complicated issue but agree that concentrated zones of poverty isn't working.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Not to dive too deep into the weeds in this discussion, there is something I think should be added: the reason why section 8 voucher users tend to end up in the exact same areas is that it is legal in the suburban counties to refuse them even if it's enough money to cover the rent. In Philadelphia, since the 1980s, it's been illegal to do so based on voucher-use. HOWEVER, there is zero enforcement of apartments refusing them, along with a lot of people not knowing their rights.

Since there is no enforcement, you can have groups like the University City Town home protesters say that the 'vouchers' aren't enough due to the possibility of being denied housing.

It's a circular problem, and like most problems in the city, there is not enough political will or brain-power to actually come up with a proper solution to have a positive outcome.

To put it in perspective, the entire states of NJ, NY, DE, and MD have laws prohibiting SOI-discrimination at the state level along with city-level laws. IMO, it's had positive effects on other metros areas with, as others have pointed out, poverty not being hyper-concentrated in specific towns or neighborhoods.

I also want to add into this.

In New Castle County Delaware there are Section 8 Properties all around the county. Here are some examples...

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6536...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6429...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ne...!4d-75.5668166

These Properties are full Section 8/Fixedincome or Home owners who rent their property to people with Section 8 Vouchers.

Compared to Philly these properties are like the Rittenhouse of Section 8 properties, they are maintained and treated as actual apartment complexes unlike some we know.

The Full Section 8 properties Like Spencers Apartment which is the first link is a very nice neighborhood, you wouldn't even know it was section 8 till you went into the office and they told you.

The 2nd & 3rd link which Hampton Green & Lexington Green is Home owners who either rent their house out regularly, Section 8 Voucher it or live in their own home.

These neighborhoods have mixed results with people who care about the neighborhood, people who kind of care, and people who don't care at all, and cause issues like some of the issues we see in Philly with Section 8 properties.

These properties were also only built due to destroying some of the notoriously bad projects in Wilmington, which caused families to have to move, and most of them moved to these projects in the suburbs.

These have mixed results because police presence is heavy in some of these neighborhoods with some (Lexington Green) has a cop stationed out there every night.

Some like Spencers are very relaxed, and many families take care of, and love their neighborhood, this has been a successful one.

The biggest issue is a concentration of people who are on the poorer side, no matter where you are if you are still poor around other poor people you will have the results of a city project.

So as others have stated mixed income apartments or homes will all types of people results in the best results of helping people and stabilizing people.

I think there's a quote in LA

"Don't let the Palm Trees Fool ya"

[mcgrath618]

The fact that PHA builds low density/high parking housing in the first place is the biggest problem, IMO. Not saying we need commie blocks everywhere but some high density public housing around transit lines (BSL/MFL) would go a long way.

Most new build PHA stuff is god awful for urbanism. That project just north of Girard near 20th is atrocious.

The economy of scale in building a large tower rather than homes also means you can build with more amenities. Modular construction can significantly lower construction costs.

To loop this back around to the UC Townhomes protests, that land would be much better utilized if there were several towers with an affordable component. Maybe even subdivide the lot and dedicate one tower entirely to public housing.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

But on the flipside spreading Section 8 around can create its own set of issues and the deep into the game folks do not change, they just bring the problems with them and start to victimize those around them. Then they spread the word and before you know it you have some major issues on your hands that the local residents and police may not be equipped to deal with.

It's a complicated issue but agree that concentrated zones of poverty isn't working.

Oddly, I think this is what you also get with low-income high rise housing too because it's too easy not to get in with the wrong mix or have a market for whatever you are selling...having it concentrated creates its own set of problems too. I thought they did away with high-rise section 8 hours in part because of this.

[blart]

7/15 900 block of N Delaware Ave.






Also, a lot of equipment and dirt being moved at the former Festival Pier site.

[reparcsyks]

Would love to know the backstory of the car.