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  #581  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 4:18 AM
spaghettisam spaghettisam is offline
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Speaking of hockey tenants, the Arizona Coyotes (NHL) have had major attendance issues over the past years and I thought Hamilton could be a sleeper relocation spot. Unfortunately, the NHL commissioner, Gary Bettman, just signed a 30-year non-relocation agreement for the franchise.

Disappointing news since I believe an NHL team coming was a background reason for these upgrades and would be used to convince the NHL it could work here.

Imagine what an NHL franchise would do for this city.
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  #582  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 5:42 AM
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The NHL was never coming to Hamilton even if the Coyotes were to relocate and we had a better arena than any current NHL arena today. It's just not going to happen.

Not only have I given up on a team coming here, but I've lost interest and don't care.
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  #583  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 9:15 AM
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My feelings with regard to an NHL team are the same. It was exhausting enough to go down that road over a decade ago, I'm not doing it again.
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  #584  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 2:18 PM
ScreamingViking ScreamingViking is offline
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The NHL will forever be the Not Hamilton League. Bettman has a very specific agenda when it comes to team locations. We don't fit. EDIT: And I think he's immortal... every time I see a recent video or picture, he looks like he's already been embalmed... ain't going away anytime soon, and he's the personification of the collective ownership who will just create a clone if he does.

Doesn't make FOC a rebel without a cause though. The arena can (and will) host a wide variety of sports and events, just as it has. It's part of the Toronto-centric market -- we see that with concerts (like Blackpink, who only played here and not at Scotiabank Arena or Skydome/Rogers)

Last edited by ScreamingViking; Nov 30, 2022 at 2:36 PM.
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  #585  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 2:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaghettisam View Post
Speaking of hockey tenants, the Arizona Coyotes (NHL) have had major attendance issues over the past years and I thought Hamilton could be a sleeper relocation spot. Unfortunately, the NHL commissioner, Gary Bettman, just signed a 30-year non-relocation agreement for the franchise.

Disappointing news since I believe an NHL team coming was a background reason for these upgrades and would be used to convince the NHL it could work here.

Imagine what an NHL franchise would do for this city.
there are a half-dozen cities any NHL expansion team or team move would go before Hamilton. Quebec, Houston, Austin, moving back to Atlanta, Portland, Milwaukee, etc. are all probably better candidates.

Hamilton is simply too small of a market.

Better to set our sights on the next-best-thing, which we could actually get. Moving the Marlies would be easy and would give Hamilton a higher caliber of hockey than any other mid-sized city in Ontario.
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  #586  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 4:31 PM
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Hamilton is simply too small of a market.
Hamilton sits in the largest hockey TV market in North America. New York's market is smaller and has 3 teams. There are a lots of well off and rich people around here who cannot get a ticket in Toronto. And the average guy, almost impossible without taking a loan. The market is much larger than Hamilton. And the NHL knows it.
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  #587  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 5:08 PM
spaghettisam spaghettisam is offline
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Hamilton sits in the largest hockey TV market in North America. New York's market is smaller and has 3 teams. There are a lots of well off and rich people around here who cannot get a ticket in Toronto. And the average guy, almost impossible without taking a loan. The market is much larger than Hamilton. And the NHL knows it.
I agree with this because adding another team would inevitably ease the demand for games in Toronto. The buzz surrounding an NHL team compared to that of an AHL/ OHL team is completely different. This is why even the Marlies coming here doesn't really excite me all that much (been there done that). The NHL would be the "something to do" that Hamiltonians talk about (I think we all know this already).

Also, the knock that it's a small market is meh in my opinion. The Green Bay Packers play in a city of 100,000 people and fill up an 80,000-capacity stadium weekly. The demand has been shown there and it has been shown in Hamilton (season ticket line).
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  #588  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 5:35 PM
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The 80m figure (2019/20 dollars) would be a little more than a coat of paint in todays dollars whenever they get around to actually doing the redo. To bring it to big league ie NHL standards would require several hundreds of millions$$.

It would be nice to see some sort of plan or renders on this project.

In addition to losing our 3 Tier 2 tenants for an extended time we are also going to lose prime dates for shows like Disney etc to other markets thinking of spring break etc. No guarantee to getting the tenants or dates back.

Finally on the NHL front we as a city are a long way to meeting basic standards. Case in point during the Centennial classic a lot of NHL staffers stayed at the Sheraton. Some senior staff came in for the weekend and were so put off by the conditions at the Sheraton, actually checked out and took rooms in Toronto.
We need to up our game if for nothing else keep the cities name in the conversation for major events.
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  #589  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Fruitloops View Post
The 80m figure (2019/20 dollars) would be a little more than a coat of paint in todays dollars whenever they get around to actually doing the redo. To bring it to big league ie NHL standards would require several hundreds of millions$$.

It would be nice to see some sort of plan or renders on this project.

In addition to losing our 3 Tier 2 tenants for an extended time we are also going to lose prime dates for shows like Disney etc to other markets thinking of spring break etc. No guarantee to getting the tenants or dates back.

Finally on the NHL front we as a city are a long way to meeting basic standards. Case in point during the Centennial classic a lot of NHL staffers stayed at the Sheraton. Some senior staff came in for the weekend and were so put off by the conditions at the Sheraton, actually checked out and took rooms in Toronto.
We need to up our game if for nothing else keep the cities name in the conversation for major events.
Do you mean the Heritage Classic?
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  #590  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 6:05 PM
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While I agree that Southern Ontario is the largest hockey market in the world, the NHL still doesn't care.

A new teams here make the owner of a new team rich/richer, and may boost the TV deal the NHL gets a bit... but overall it doesn't bring in much more money to all the teams. They want to grow the game beyond just hockey markets - they want it to be a national thing in the US. That'll never happen of course - hockey will remain a distant 4th to the NFL, MLB and NBA... but the NHL will keep trying and dreaming.

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Originally Posted by spaghettisam View Post
Also, the knock that it's a small market is meh in my opinion. The Green Bay Packers play in a city of 100,000 people and fill up an 80,000-capacity stadium weekly. The demand has been shown there and it has been shown in Hamilton (season ticket line).
The difference is that Green Bay was grandfathered. They have a lot of history and stuck around while the NFL grew and remain there today - of course they needed help to stay alive by being publicly owned... the only team in the NFL. Today the NFL would never expand to a city like Green Bay or Buffalo. It's about more than just filling the seats in a stadium/arena.
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  #591  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 6:05 PM
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there are a half-dozen cities any NHL expansion team or team move would go before Hamilton. Quebec, Houston, Austin, moving back to Atlanta, Portland, Milwaukee, etc. are all probably better candidates.

Hamilton is simply too small of a market.

Better to set our sights on the next-best-thing, which we could actually get. Moving the Marlies would be easy and would give Hamilton a higher caliber of hockey than any other mid-sized city in Ontario.
Hamilton is a bigger market than most of those places. We have 8 million people within an hours drive. The only one of those with a bigger population within an hour might be Houston.
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  #592  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 6:16 PM
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Hamilton is a bigger market than most of those places. We have 8 million people within an hours drive. The only one of those with a bigger population within an hour might be Houston.
I agree.

The issue for the NHL is that we already pay attention to it, whether it's the Leafs or Canadiens or what have you. There's little net new money in putting a team here, regardless of how it would succeed on a balance sheet in terms of attendance and sponsorship.

Until The Count and the ownership realize their dreams re: the American market are not realistic, Hamilton is a no go.
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  #593  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 6:23 PM
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Correction...Heritage Classic Leafs v Sabres in March...that one
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  #594  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2022, 8:41 PM
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At this point, there is no way Hamilton or Quebec get teams until the NHL goes to 36. The league is still incredibly stable despite the Coyotes situation (which is on a good track right now with Tempe supporting the new arena proposal), so relocation isn’t in the cards for the foreseeable future. Expansion past 32 seems unlikely to happen in the near future, but NFL is already reportedly looking at expanding to 40. The NFL has always been ahead of the curve when it comes to expansion, so if they expand again, the other pro leagues will eventually follow afterward.

Quebec and Hamilton are probably the two strongest expansion candidates in the east at this point. Both are small but could easily support a team since there is little competition regionally. Hamilton is hybrid Leafs/Sabres territory but there is a big population to draw from in the area, especially with the SW Ontario market where there is no real competition.
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  #595  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 1:23 PM
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The Rock lacrosse team promises it will return to Hamilton after FirstOntario Centre renovations, Steve Milton writes.

https://www.thespec.com/sports/lacro...-saturday.html
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  #596  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2022, 10:18 PM
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I would love to see The Rock play in London for those couple seasons. But it's probably just too far from Hamilton. Budweiser Gardens is usually available Saturdays as the Knights play at lot of Friday and Sunday games. Considering NLL isn't a big schedule, they could make it work, same as any of the other OHL arenas being talked about.
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  #597  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 12:12 AM
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Now that the Honeybadgers have moved and with The Rock and Bulldogs seasons ending in May maybe construction can start sooner than the fall, say June?
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  #598  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2022, 12:19 AM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is online now
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Now that the Honeybadgers have moved and with The Rock and Bulldogs seasons ending in May maybe construction can start sooner than the fall, say June?
That would be nice. Rip the band-aid off, get started. Summer is a big concert season though.
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  #599  
Old Posted Dec 4, 2022, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by spaghettisam View Post
Speaking of hockey tenants, the Arizona Coyotes (NHL) have had major attendance issues over the past years and I thought Hamilton could be a sleeper relocation spot. Unfortunately, the NHL commissioner, Gary Bettman, just signed a 30-year non-relocation agreement for the franchise.

Disappointing news since I believe an NHL team coming was a background reason for these upgrades and would be used to convince the NHL it could work here.

Imagine what an NHL franchise would do for this city.
I don't think this is the case. I believe Bettman told Tempe council the team would sign such an assurance if the arena deal passes. But it's not his deal to sign, it's the team, and Tempe still has to have a referendum in 5 or 6 months before they can approve the new arena. I also don't recall anywhere, other than wishful thinking on this forum, that an NHL team had anything to do with plans to renovate the FOC.
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  #600  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2022, 4:34 PM
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Probably discussed in multiple iterations of this discussion, but Hamilton had the chance when Balsillie tried multiple times to buy a team (Penguins, Predators and the closest was the Coyotes, move them to Hamilton and renovate Copps (which was built to be compartmentalized/reno'd). Of course he got too enthusiastic and pissed off the Count.

It's never going to happen unless a team moves here and as mentioned the Count would strongly encourage all those American destinations over QC (then Hamilton). The Sabres and Leafs will continually impose their will on blocking Hamilton regardless of population draw especially in SW Ontario that would love to have a team. Honestly our best bet would be to get the Sabres. No one cares about them and they've been going in the right direction finally over the last two years. Their arena feels dated even though it's a mid-90s vintage. There's no demand to build a new one and they could be low hanging fruit. The only time the building is full is if the Leafs or Habs play there.

As for other teams and events, they will come regardless because of opportunity cost. The new FOC will draw lots of events because of the rental cost of Scotiabank Arena and there's no real secondary options for larger events. FOC also provides a secondary date for a large band as well. It's going to be very nice and OVG's going to pour a ton of money into this because they have a vested interested via Spectra.
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