An Empty Big-Box Store Is a Lesson In "Commercial Density"

[edale]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Target took over an anchor spot at Christiana Mall here in Delaware. Christiana Mall is one of the few malls in the US that is successful, and it still regularly brings in people from out-of-state (and not just Pennsylvania and Maryland, either; it is normal to see people from Connecticut, New York, and Virginia there).

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6794...4!8i8192?hl=en

Wtf? Why would someone go from NY or CT to a mall anchored by a Target and JC Penney?

[Onward]

Originally Posted by edale

Wtf? Why would someone go from NY or CT to a mall anchored by a Target and JC Penney?

No sales tax I suppose.

[austlar1]

There is a stand-alone empty Home Depot property now owned by the city of Austin that is somewhat centrally located on north IH35. Originally there was talk of moving either municipal courts or the Police Dept. to this site, but nothing came of either proposal. The store is probably around 90,000 square feet with a large surrounding parking lot. I would love to see the building and parking lot used as a facility for homeless people with showers,lockers, some limited shelter capacity, and also triage services from the various private and public agencies tasked with helping homeless folks transition out of homelessness. There are already hundreds of homeless living in tents under nearby freeways, and this could be a way to move these folks into a safer space with services. I'm not sure what this plan contributes to "commercial density", but it would certainly be a way to put a large commercial property in a fairly blighted but well connected area to good use in the short term at any rate.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Texan101

No sales tax I suppose.

There's no sales tax on clothing/shoes/furniture in NJ, and in NY, there's no sales tax on clothing/shoes under $110.

So while I don't doubt there are vehicles with NY/NJ/CT license plates at a random Delaware mall, I seriously doubt they drove there for the purpose of visiting the mall.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by mhays

Power centers can be redeveloped pretty easily in chunks.

Turning a few stores and their parking lots into more intense uses (such as apartments) doesn't affect anyone else's parking or access.

With an enclosed mall with surface parking, even redeveloping a segment of the parking will affect the nearest stores. And redeveloping a section of the mall itself impacts shopper patterns in the mall.

Yeah, I've been seeing some of that in Phoenix. Both office and apartment uses eating up surface lot space.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Texan101

No sales tax I suppose.

You can still avoid sales tax by buying online from small out-of-state sellers (no longer the "big boys"). It would be cheaper than driving from Connecticut to Delaware.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ It's like an inversion of the old suburban shopping mall model. They pulled all the stores to the edges and put the parking in the middle because it really is ALL about parking and driving.

Instead of driving to the mall, parking your car, and getting out and actually waking around the mall, now you can just hop from store to store with your car, parking it in front of every store you wish to shop at. No more laborious walking from store to store!

The great American laziness ladder always finds a lower rung to sink to.

next up: drive thru walmarts, drive thru costcos, and drive thru bed-bath-and-beyond.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by edale

Wtf? Why would someone go from NY or CT to a mall anchored by a Target and JC Penney?

No sales tax. And there's an Apple Store there. People take buses and come down and buy thousands of dollars of stuff. Some come down and buy 10 iPhones.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Target took over an anchor spot at Christiana Mall here in Delaware. Christiana Mall is one of the few malls in the US that is successful, and it still regularly brings in people from out-of-state (and not just Pennsylvania and Maryland, either; it is normal to see people from Connecticut, New York, and Virginia there).

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6794...4!8i8192?hl=en

I think a lot of malls have Targets these days.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by ocman

That building in particular has enough height for a rock-climbing gym.

That's actually what it was. The center atrium was a climbing gym in all Galyan's stores before they became Dick's sporting goods. I could see them easily converted to fitness centers, maybe less recreational facilities as in team sports as there's still tight column spacing making open courts prohibitive.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

No sales tax. And there's an Apple Store there. People take buses and come down and buy thousands of dollars of stuff. Some come down and buy 10 iPhones.

Ahh, you're talking about the boosters. That makes sense, lol.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

You can still avoid sales tax by buying online from small out-of-state sellers (no longer the "big boys"). It would be cheaper than driving from Connecticut to Delaware.

CT to DE is a bit extreme. When I lived in New Hampshire, we'd be inundated with Massholes on the weekends up shopping since we had no sales taxes.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by JManc

CT to DE is a bit extreme. When I lived in New Hampshire, we'd be inundated with Massholes on the weekends up shopping since we had no sales taxes.

Not really, when you think of it. New Haven is only 3 hours away from Wilmington, so the drive and distance isn't bad if you don't leave during heavy driving times. The tolls are another matter.

[Crawford]

Again, there are no sales taxes on most items in NJ, and in NY, no sales taxes for up to $110.

So it's highly unlikely that Connecticut residents are driving to Delaware for the purpose of visiting malls, unless they're buying like 50 iPhones for illegal distribution. Apparel would already be tax-free in NJ/NY.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

Not really, when you think of it. New Haven is only 3 hours away from Wilmington, so the drive and distance isn't bad if you don't leave during heavy driving times. The tolls are another matter.

You're still dealing with New York and Philly traffic, not to mention gas and tolls which pretty much negates any savings for most items. You'd have to be loading up a lot of iPhones and PS5's to scalp on eBay or springing for a new Patek Philippe. Even then, Keene, NH is still closer.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by JManc

You're still dealing with New York and Philly traffic, not to mention gas and tolls which pretty much negates any savings for most items. You'd have to be loading up a lot of iPhones and PS5's to scalp on eBay or springing for a new Patek Philippe. Even then, Keene, NH is still closer.

Yeah, that's a good $40 in unavoidable tolls to get from Wilmington to Connecticut. Round trip, you're looking at $60 in tolls alone, not to mention gas. It pretty much only makes sense to do this if you're buying a bunch of items to hawk overseas where you can mark it up 100%.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ It's like an inversion of the old suburban shopping mall model. They pulled all the stores to the edges and put the parking in the middle because it really is ALL about parking and driving.

Instead of driving to the mall, parking your car, and getting out and actually waking around the mall, now you can just hop from store to store with your car, parking it in front of every store you wish to shop at. No more laborious walking from store to store!

The great American laziness ladder always finds a lower rung to sink to.

I think it is also that each store can show more of its own unique identity in color and even shape, rather than blend into the bland colors most indoor malls have. It may be also a little easier to get to the store of choice. For example, in one mall I used to go to, JC Penny's was on the back side, so you had to drive around the mall to get to it from the mall entrances, which was sometimes a traffic bottleneck, and then you had to pull in the big lot to get near the entrance, which was not always obvious.

In DC area, some malls were very successful, like Pentagon City, and some were not like Landmark. I wonder if it has to do with ease of access (Pentagon was accessible via the metro, and Landmark was not), but it may also be choice of stores (Pentagon has an Apple store). Landmark is finally being redeveloped as mixed use - at one point the only store holdout was Sears (of course!), and most of the parking lot were Amazon vans.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by uaarkson

Fun fact: a single block in Manhattan generates more tax revenue than this disaster, and uses WAY less land and energy

The land value of that Manhattan block costs more too.
No reason to intensify development when the land is cheap. As land prices get more expensive, more expensive and taller structures get build.
Those big box stores, basically glorified hangars, are the cheapest structures to build on cheap land.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Gantz

The land value of that Manhattan block costs more too.
No reason to intensify development when the land is cheap. As land prices get more expensive, more expensive and taller structures get build.
Those big box stores, basically glorified hangars, are the cheapest structures to build on cheap land.

The land probably won't ever get more expensive if they have local policies that encourage this type of usage.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by JManc

CT to DE is a bit extreme. When I lived in New Hampshire, we'd be inundated with Massholes on the weekends up shopping since we had no sales taxes.

People drive up and down the I95 DC to NY corridor mostly to visit family or go on vacation, such as the beaches. I doubt they drive just to go shopping but the Christina mall is off of an exit to also go to the Delaware beaches and maybe some people may decide to stop for having a nice lunch or dinner as well. You can also avoid tolls by taking some of those exits, if you don't mind the few extra minutes of driving. I usually avoided many of the Delaware, PA and NJ tolls when I went back and forth from DC to NY, but they started adding tolls on previously free roads in PA and Delaware during the past few years.