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  #14981  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 9:34 PM
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Let me put it this way gang…

Would you only choose to change your vehicle’s oil after the engine has already seized?
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  #14982  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Reeder113 View Post
Not true in the slightest.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022...ch-highlights/

Also, even if they cut their water usage by 100%, it wouldn't make a dent. Agriculture is what swallows up over 80% of our water usage.
The Church’s own water use isn’t an issue, but they have a ton of interest in Utah’s well being and they have some money if I’m not mistaken.
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  #14983  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 9:46 PM
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I’m not an ex Mormon. Not antsy either. Also, are you implying that since it happened to actually be winter this one year the last two decades and a half of piss poor winters are not a concern?
I didn't say anything about you.

I'm implying that the doomsday rhetoric is a persuasion tactic and that the apocalyptic predictions are exaggerations. The lake is receding and scientists are right to be worried but these "predictions" of certain death in five years are hyperbolic and designed to get people to write their legislators. It works. People are talking about it.

If I had asked you about this four months ago, you probably would have told me that there was no chance we would ever have a winter like this again. Now the goalposts have shifted to "we would need many more years of this for it to matter". I guarantee that if next winter is a good one too, the narrative won't change. The truth is that the climate is so complex that no one can actually predict the future.

The other thing I said is that the political situation is nonlinear. If the situation gets much worse, the legislature will react. The Church will react. Every other stakeholder will react. It's not like its going to just dry up and no one will change their behavior. The farmers' desires will be sacrificed if it comes to that. We're already talking about it.
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  #14984  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
I didn't say anything about you.

I'm implying that the doomsday rhetoric is a persuasion tactic and that the apocalyptic predictions are exaggerations. The lake is receding and scientists are right to be worried but these "predictions" of certain death in five years are hyperbolic and designed to get people to write their legislators.

If I had asked you about this four months ago, you probably would have told me that there was no chance we would ever have a winter like this again. Now the goalposts have shifted to "we would need many more years of this for it to matter". I guarantee that if next winter is a good one too, the narrative won't change. The truth is that the climate is so complex that no one can actually predict the future.

The other thing I said is that the political situation is nonlinear. If the situation gets much worse, the legislature will react. The Church will react. Every other stakeholder will react. It's not like its going to just dry up and no one will change their behavior. The farmers' desires will be sacrificed if it comes to that.
Okay, there’s a lot to unpack there, and it’s just going to open up a deeper discussion that’s just gonna get wiped by a Mod anyway. So I’m going to retract myself from this for now.

Let me share one thing though. It’s not the news headlines that got me to start spewing all this about the lake.

I’m a videographer. In early 2019 I shot an event for the Great Salt Lake Advisory Council. They presented the short and long term effects of the lake drying up if trends of the last 100 years continued. After, I met and befriended the researchers commissioned by the advisory. Spending hours talking with them, and reading their own data, has led me to saying all this today.
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  #14985  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rileybo View Post
Okay, there’s a lot to unpack there, and it’s just going to open up a deeper discussion that’s just gonna get wiped by a Mod anyway. So I’m going to retract myself from this for now.

Let me share one thing though. It’s not the news headlines that got me to start spewing all this about the lake.

I’m a videographer. In early 2019 I shot an event for the Great Salt Lake Advisory Council. They presented the short and long term effects of the lake drying up if trends of the last 100 years continued. After, I met and befriended the researchers commissioned by the advisory. Spending hours talking with them, and reading their own data, has led me to saying all this today.
No one disputes that the lake level is falling, or that we could do more to stop it. But the second someone says "it's going to be unlivable in 5 years", my eyes roll back into my head.
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  #14986  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2023, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Rileybo View Post
Anyway how’s Astra looking?
Will start pouring Level 17 concrete overnight, so by afternoon tomorrow we'll be well underway building the Level 18 decking.

But what I'm looking forward to is the crane jump starting a week from tomorrow. It is the first jump of two. It will be more prominent in the skyline by end of next week.
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  #14987  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
No one disputes that the lake level is falling, or that we could do more to stop it. But the second someone says "it's going to be unlivable in 5 years", my eyes roll back into my head.
Wasn’t going to chime in, but given some of the commentary and my expertise in paleoclimate I couldn’t resist. For those who are interested, below is a summary of the Great Salt Lake and climate over the past 25,000 years. For those not interested and just want to discuss development topics only, keep it moving to the next posts.

The lake level has fluctuated since the last glacial maximum around 22,000 years ago. Back then climate was much cooler, so there was less evaporation and lake levels reached a maximum a few thousand years after the glacial maximum as ice and snow melted and drained into the lake. You can see the ancient lake Bonneville shorelines where the lake used to rise to. Then the lake levels declined until about the younger dryas about 11,500 years ago. Since then during the Holocene Lake levels have fluctuated by about plus or minus 50 feet or so, but there has been no trend towards a deeper or shallower Lake levels with a few wet and dry exceptions like the Medieval Climate Anomaly. More on that later. Currently we are dealing with anthropogenic climate change, which has accelerated warming and caused increased evaporation of lakes like the Salt Lake. Over the past 100 years we had some low stands in the 60s, a high stand in the 80s and now another low stand. So what’s different now compared to the last 22,000 years? This could be the first time in the past 22,000 years and beyond that, that the lake may dry up completely.

Now I can list all the cascading environmental effects the lake drying up will have from migratory birds that eat the lakes brine shrimp that need a certain salinity level to exist, to the lake effect snow that helps fuel our ski industry. This year is wet. And as Reeder pointed out there were a few wet years since 2000. But the other 15 of the 20 years were dry and with higher temperatures due to anthropogenic climate change evaporation rates are higher then they’ve ever been. Couple that with increasing water usage and bad water practices and here we are.

If you look at dendrochronology, the study of tree rings we can see in older trees wet and dry years. Old trees have rings that go back a couple thousand years. We are fortunate to have some real old bristlecones in our backyard along the Utah Nevada border to pull some data points from. These proxy data show that the last 20 years since 2000, has been the worst drought since the medieval climate anomaly about 1400 years ago. Climate does naturally vary. There are wet and dry years, but this drought has been exacerbated by higher temperatures then we’ve experienced since wellbefore the Quaternary Period which has encompassed the last 2.6 million years. We should take the lake drying up seriously. Should we arm wave? No. There are solutions I believe in better using and allocating our water. Will the lake dry up in 5 years? Maybe not, we could string together a few wet years, maybe even a wet decade. But did anyone notice that the really wet winter a few years ago only marginally raised lake levels but not nearly enough? Higher temperatures and evaporation in addition to our water usage are a forces to be reckoned with. We have one thing in our power as a state of Utah. To better allocate our water and send more water to the GSL.

Now I’ll wait for someone to complain that this is a development forum and this information is not pertinent, but I did warn those that are annoyed by this rhetoric to not read beyond the first paragraph. Gotta love Science, especially Science that hasn’t been disproven by the scientific method - the Science I speak of above

Last edited by TheGeographer; Feb 7, 2023 at 12:18 AM.
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  #14988  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 12:05 AM
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Now I’ll wait for someone to complain that this is a development forum and this information is not pertinent...
No complaint, but it looks like they started a new thread for this topic.
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  #14989  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rileybo View Post
The Church’s own water use isn’t an issue, but they have a ton of interest in Utah’s well being and they have some money if I’m not mistaken.
More important than money is influence. They could call legislators today and tomorrow they would pass legislation buying up water rights. If the church says jump, legislators ask how high.
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  #14990  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
No complaint, but it looks like they started a new thread for this topic.
Well that won't look good, and won't help spur investment/development either.

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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
More important than money is influence. They could call legislators today and tomorrow they would pass legislation buying up water rights. If the church says jump, legislators ask how high.
I bear witness to the truthfulness of this statement.
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  #14991  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 12:44 AM
TheGeographer TheGeographer is offline
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Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
No complaint, but it looks like they started a new thread for this topic.
True and we should probably move this discussion/topics there, but plenty of people seemed interested in it here.
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  #14992  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
Will start pouring Level 17 concrete overnight, so by afternoon tomorrow we'll be well underway building the Level 18 decking.

But what I'm looking forward to is the crane jump starting a week from tomorrow. It is the first jump of two. It will be more prominent in the skyline by end of next week.
Any new large projects on the horizon or even some wiffs? No need for specifics, wink if you can
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  #14993  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 2:27 AM
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Plan?

I have a few ideas, feel free to correct my errors or logic. Some of my ideas are more realistic then others. I’ll start with the easy ones first.

Conservation, there are all types of ways we can conserve. One rather simple conservation method we could apply to agricultural is to limit their watering times. Apparently farmers have blocks of times they are allowed to water. (Please feel free to add facts and times if you have them). Some of these farmers have a time slot in the heat of the day when we know most of the water is lost to evaporation. I see hay and alfalfa fields watered all summer long in the heat of the day and I think this should be an easy change. We need to shorten each block of watering time and prohibit watering during the hours of 10am-6pm, or something along those lines. This may require watering infrastructure changes to make this work within reason, but this is a realistic change to use water in an effective/efficient manor.

Another idea that I’m sure is already being mulled over is expanding the central Utah water project and other small projects that can move water from one watershed to the Wasatch front watershed. I don’t really know the ins and outs of water rights but it is my understanding that we don’t use all our Colorado river water rights. Perhaps we could use/move some of our Colorado river water towards the Wasatch front. I believe the Central Utah water project does this already and hopefully we can move more from the Unitas towards the GSL.

I think a long shot would be to move some water from the Snake River towards the GSL but that would definitely be the most difficult legally, politically and most expensive. Anyway, I’d really like to hear some other options that people may have had.
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  #14994  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 3:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Utah_Dave View Post
I have a few ideas, feel free to correct my errors or logic. Some of my ideas are more realistic then others. I’ll start with the easy ones first.

Conservation, there are all types of ways we can conserve. One rather simple conservation method we could apply to agricultural is to limit their watering times. Apparently farmers have blocks of times they are allowed to water. (Please feel free to add facts and times if you have them). Some of these farmers have a time slot in the heat of the day when we know most of the water is lost to evaporation. I see hay and alfalfa fields watered all summer long in the heat of the day and I think this should be an easy change. We need to shorten each block of watering time and prohibit watering during the hours of 10am-6pm, or something along those lines. This may require watering infrastructure changes to make this work within reason, but this is a realistic change to use water in an effective/efficient manor.

Another idea that I’m sure is already being mulled over is expanding the central Utah water project and other small projects that can move water from one watershed to the Wasatch front watershed. I don’t really know the ins and outs of water rights but it is my understanding that we don’t use all our Colorado river water rights. Perhaps we could use/move some of our Colorado river water towards the Wasatch front. I believe the Central Utah water project does this already and hopefully we can move more from the Unitas towards the GSL.

I think a long shot would be to move some water from the Snake River towards the GSL but that would definitely be the most difficult legally, politically and most expensive. Anyway, I’d really like to hear some other options that people may have had.

I am by no means an expert, but these sound possible. Though, I am thinking of all the red tape that could stop this from happening. I also think that as long as Gov. Cox is the governor no changes regarding water and farming are going to happen. He's from rural Utah with farming roots. I'm sure he will protect farmers to no end.
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  #14995  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 3:49 AM
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Ahh yes, the Cocks problem
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  #14996  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 4:03 AM
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Seriously though, I think you are right about governor Cox and the farmers. This wet winter will allow him to punt another year or two before he really has to consider any real action or conservation related to the agricultural industry. Maybe I’m being salty about our governor, any real steps taken that I might have missed by the Governor?
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  #14997  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Stenar View Post
More important than money is influence. They could call legislators today and tomorrow they would pass legislation buying up water rights. If the church says jump, legislators ask how high.
That's a bingo
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  #14998  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Utah_Dave View Post
Seriously though, I think you are right about governor Cox and the farmers. This wet winter will allow him to punt another year or two before he really has to consider any real action or conservation related to the agricultural industry. Maybe I’m being salty about our governor, any real steps taken that I might have missed by the Governor?
Not sure about the agricultural industry, but here's an executive order he issued regarding the Great Salt Lake:

https://governor.utah.gov/2023/02/03...causeway-berm/
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  #14999  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 3:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Schmoe View Post
Will start pouring Level 17 concrete overnight, so by afternoon tomorrow we'll be well underway building the Level 18 decking.

But what I'm looking forward to is the crane jump starting a week from tomorrow. It is the first jump of two. It will be more prominent in the skyline by end of next week.
Thanks for the update. I would love to watch it happen...anyone know what happened to this camera or if there's a chance it will ever be back up?: https://mattblank.org/camera1.jpg
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  #15000  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2023, 3:31 PM
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Thanks for the update. I would love to watch it happen...anyone know what happened to this camera or if there's a chance it will ever be back up?: https://mattblank.org/camera1.jpg
I don't know what happened to it. I do miss following the progress on a regular basis.
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