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  #23181  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 1:12 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by SEFTA View Post
I think the most logical location for a Center City arena would be at the CHINATOWN STATION.
An integrated "METRO" station, Franklin Square PATCO, blocks from Jefferson Station and an intense desire to develop this lot
and not so intrusive
with a great highway presence and access

Chinatown Arena by , on Flickr
I don't see how that's a better option. Jefferston Station is a 1 seat ride for so many more people.

Also this is Chinatown adjacent and Chinatown would fight this fiercely as well.
     
     
  #23182  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 3:01 PM
BroadandMarket BroadandMarket is offline
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That 9th and Race location is way more obtrusive to Chinatown than 11th and Market. Chinatown would go even crazier over this location while not having any public transit or walkability upside over 11th and Market. It's only a 5 minute walk to the 8th Street El stop but a 10 minute walk from Jefferson station. The only chance this thing has to work is if the suburban regional rail riders can take the train in and out without what they view as a long walk, especially considering most of the 76ers season is cold weather. 11th and Market is the best possible location in the whole city and I hope we don't fuck it up. 8th and Market is second best but that would require Jeff to sell / demolish the handsome building on the southwest corner.
     
     
  #23183  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 7:23 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
A bit absolute...

I have long preferred a continuation of the East Market development on the 1100 Block south side. Keep it simple, demolish the Fashion District and adjacent shabby blocks and build towers over retail podiums with pedestrian passageways. A nice hotel, retail, some offices, entertainment spaces, and a thousand apartment units is what Market East needs, it's not rocket science... But the only "redevelopment" plan on the table is the arena. So we either accept the tragic status quo of Market East or work with this proposal.

My suggestion, (I've said this before but was ignored), the Sixers owners should not plop down an arena and call it a day. They should view that entire stretch as a master plan and implement some (or all) of the items I mentioned above. They have the capital, they have the connections, it should be a slam dunk (no pun intended). This project will turn out well if it is one piece of a larger Market East redevelopment plan.

Worst case, we get a new arena that will at look better than that dinosaur mall and bring more people into Center city.

(Separately, the Sixers owners should also push Goldenberg to either develop or sell their 8th & Market plot.)
they just put like $200m into the FDP and at the end of the day they are all boxes. Replacing the recently rebuilt FDP with a new 18k seat box does not magically energize market street around the clock. I understand all the cool kids hate the FDP but calling it a dinosaur mall 3 years after a major renovation sounds absolutely insane. And I dont care what anyone says the inside is actually nice and unrecognizable vs the gallery.

If you add up how many people visit the FDP vs how many the sixers arena will attract on 100 event nights a year Im not so sure the arena brings in more. FDP is open almost every day and surely employs far more people than the sixers arena will. I will repeat- just because individuals hate the FDP and dont like any of its stores does not mean NO ONE shops there. I could care less about most of the luxury brand stores that so many on here claim we need in order to validate Philadelphia but I would never say they shouldnt exist simply because I would never shop at any of them. There is virtually nothing for sale on Walnut that interests me or would get my dollars but Im all for having all these trendy clicks to bricks retailers open their stores even though they will mostly be empty in terms of foot traffic.
     
     
  #23184  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 7:25 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Good news for 1 former Wawa location.

Wawa CEO reveals plans for shuttered Center City stores, including launch of a tech hub
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=1#cxrecs_s

Gheysens made the announcement during a panel discussion at the Chamber of Commerce for Greater Philadelphia's 2023 Economic Outlook event. He told the Business Journal that the Delaware County convenience store chain's space at 19th and Market streets, which shuttered last fall, will potentially serve as a venue to bring startups together in a "Wawa real-life environment" to provide tech solutions for the company.

The hub could also provide training for young workers to help meet the growing demand for tech talent in the region, Gheysens added. It could be Wawa-specific, or could serve as a more regional, multi-partner venue.
Overall, the chain wants the location to become a "beacon" for the health of the tech industry in the region.

"That is a great location, and hopefully a visible sign that tech is alive and well, and the ecosystem that we create around it for the Philly area is alive and well," Gheysens said.
The planned venue is part of Wawa's partnership with the Chamber of Commerce for Greater Philadelphia to support its efforts to grow the region's brand and market it as a tech hub. Philadelphia's potential in the tech industry, Gheysens said, is "undersold."

Gheysens also shed some light on the fate of two other recently closed Wawa stores at 12th and Market streets and 13th and Chestnut streets.

The chain is negotiating an end to its lease at the 12th and Market location and will not reopen. At the 13th and Chestnut outpost, which closed in December 2021, Wawa is working with an undisclosed nonprofit partner to transform the location into "something that could really do good" for the Philadelphia community. The space has a catering facility in the basement, which Gheysens said the company wants to make use of.
     
     
  #23185  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 7:35 PM
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Gatorade_Jim Gatorade_Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Good news for 1 former Wawa location.

Wawa CEO reveals plans for shuttered Center City stores, including launch of a tech hub
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=1#cxrecs_s

Gheysens made the announcement during a panel discussion at the Chamber of Commerce for Greater Philadelphia's 2023 Economic Outlook event. He told the Business Journal that the Delaware County convenience store chain's space at 19th and Market streets, which shuttered last fall, will potentially serve as a venue to bring startups together in a "Wawa real-life environment" to provide tech solutions for the company.

The hub could also provide training for young workers to help meet the growing demand for tech talent in the region, Gheysens added. It could be Wawa-specific, or could serve as a more regional, multi-partner venue.
Overall, the chain wants the location to become a "beacon" for the health of the tech industry in the region.

"That is a great location, and hopefully a visible sign that tech is alive and well, and the ecosystem that we create around it for the Philly area is alive and well," Gheysens said.
The planned venue is part of Wawa's partnership with the Chamber of Commerce for Greater Philadelphia to support its efforts to grow the region's brand and market it as a tech hub. Philadelphia's potential in the tech industry, Gheysens said, is "undersold."

Gheysens also shed some light on the fate of two other recently closed Wawa stores at 12th and Market streets and 13th and Chestnut streets.

The chain is negotiating an end to its lease at the 12th and Market location and will not reopen. At the 13th and Chestnut outpost, which closed in December 2021, Wawa is working with an undisclosed nonprofit partner to transform the location into "something that could really do good" for the Philadelphia community. The space has a catering facility in the basement, which Gheysens said the company wants to make use of.
"At the 13th and Chestnut outpost, which closed in December 2021, Wawa is working with an undisclosed nonprofit partner to transform the location into 'something that could really do good' for the Philadelphia community."

I wonder what the plan is there
     
     
  #23186  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 8:11 PM
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Gatorade_Jim Gatorade_Jim is offline
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Interesting choice. I'm very new to Philly politics, anybody know how much weight the transit union has here? I hadn't heard of Jeff Brown until this announcement, but from reading his views on SEPTA transit safety needs, he seems to be walking in the right direction.

Philly’s largest municipal union has endorsed Jeff Brown for mayor in a surprise vote
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/el...-20230113.html
     
     
  #23187  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 8:14 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim View Post
"At the 13th and Chestnut outpost, which closed in December 2021, Wawa is working with an undisclosed nonprofit partner to transform the location into 'something that could really do good' for the Philadelphia community."

I wonder what the plan is there
Yeah unfortunately there already exists quite a few non-profits in the neighborhood that are aiming to do “something that could really do good for the Philadelphia community” but are inherently contributing to a lot of the issues facing this area.
     
     
  #23188  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 8:21 PM
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Gatorade_Jim Gatorade_Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Yeah unfortunately there already exists quite a few non-profits in the neighborhood that are aiming to do “something that could really do good for the Philadelphia community” but are inherently contributing to a lot of the issues facing this area.
Exactly what I was thinking.
     
     
  #23189  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 10:13 PM
mja mja is offline
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Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis View Post
I’m not reflexively opposed to a potential arena but you got this issue of “Chinatown jumping 676” backwards. Chinatown historically comprised the area north of 676, which cleaved the neighborhood in two.
Eh, most everything north of 676 is historically industrial. There wasn't much of anything residential there until the 90's / 00's.
     
     
  #23190  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2023, 10:20 PM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is offline
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Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim View Post
Exactly what I was thinking.
If it isn’t a non profit youth cooking center dedicated to teaching children and others the art of preparing healthy gourmet cuisine, then I’ll likely be spouting off a few emails…
     
     
  #23191  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 12:14 AM
AnEmperorPenguin AnEmperorPenguin is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
I

I already acknowledged that while rent control is effective at preventing current residents from being displaced, it can have negative consequences if nothing else is done. That's why I suggested rent control in conjunction with up zoning and deregulation. Passing rent control in conjunction with development friendly re-zoning should combat the negative effect rent control has on the market and encourage continued and denser development. You protect the housing of those who already live here and ensure enough new housing is built to house those moving in.

A number of people have raised the point that the people who are always pushing to downzone everything and fight against development don't really care about gentrification and care a lot more about parking and maintaining the ever growing value of their homes. I can concede that's probably true. But again, I don't think it matters. Regardless of whatever the true intention is, whenever City Council downzones a neighborhood, look at what they're saying. Look at what Clarke said when he downzoned Callowhill. It's all about gentrification. He mentions density and parking. But it's gentrification, gentrification, gentrification when he's truly trying to justify his actions. It's a legitimate fear of many Philadelphians and a ton of terrible stuff is done in the name of preventing it.

Philadelphia needs to be rezoned. Philadelphia needs to encourage denser housing with fewer parking requirements. How do we get there? How do we make it happen? I maintain that the best way is to do zoning reform and rent control in one package. It's the best way to alleviate the most pressing and activating concerns of the people who fight against needed development in this city. And those who don't really care about people being displaced from their homes and are just using the boogeyman of gentrification to pass restrictive zoning laws for their own benefit will be stripped of their cover.

I don't really understand your thought process here, to Clarke any development is the "gentrification" he's fighting, why is he going to agree to any big upzoning?
     
     
  #23192  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 12:44 AM
Nanyika Nanyika is offline
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Originally Posted by mja View Post
Eh, most everything north of 676 is historically industrial. There wasn't much of anything residential there until the 90's / 00's.
I would challenge this statement. Into the early years of the 20th century, the area was overwhelmingly residential. After the construction of the BF Bridge in the 1920s, and as the century wore on, more and more houses were torn down, either for warehouses and small industrial establishments or for parking lots, but still a lot of houses remained. You can view old maps of the area to see how it changed over the years: https://www.philageohistory.org/tiles/viewer/
     
     
  #23193  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 3:30 AM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Yeah unfortunately there already exists quite a few non-profits in the neighborhood that are aiming to do “something that could really do good for the Philadelphia community” but are inherently contributing to a lot of the issues facing this area.
Agreed. I’m hoping it’s not a Wawa sponsored homeless shelter and instead turns out to be something more like this…

This nonprofit catering company is cooking up something good

https://generocity.org/philly/2019/0...omething-good/

Seems like a good cause and would be reasonably amenable to the area.
     
     
  #23194  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 1:57 PM
mja mja is offline
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Originally Posted by Nanyika View Post
I would challenge this statement. Into the early years of the 20th century, the area was overwhelmingly residential. After the construction of the BF Bridge in the 1920s, and as the century wore on, more and more houses were torn down, either for warehouses and small industrial establishments or for parking lots, but still a lot of houses remained. You can view old maps of the area to see how it changed over the years: https://www.philageohistory.org/tiles/viewer/
Sure, there were / are houses, but even most of that was built to house workers in nearby factories. Specifically I'm talking the area north of Chinatown, i.e. roughly 9th to Broad, Vine to Spring Garden. It was / is already severed by the viaduct and it's chock full of century+ old industrial factories, warehouses, etc. The idea that it was truly functioning residential area before Vine St. came along is more than a stretch, let alone to claim it was a part of Chinatown.

And if we're talking East Callowhill, wasn't that the tenderloin? I'm not saying it should have been raised to the ground, but it was skid row.
     
     
  #23195  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 3:19 PM
DeltaNerd DeltaNerd is offline
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Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000 View Post
The only people who were in Chinatown and at Reading Terminal last week were people from the History convention going on.
I don't agree with comparing 676 and the Roundhouse to the convention center or the proposed arena which could be used even more often.

676 was certainly a detriment, but northwest center city is the only area really still floundering in trash filled un-used parking lots. Many owned by chinese LLC's from NJ.

It's not the elixir but it could be the spark as a billion dollar mixed-use development turning the retail of the mall into a few street fronting spaces. Concerts, WNBA, whatever could use it in the off-season. Maybe get Goldenberg to move on 8th and Market into a hotel or something.
I think you put in way too much stock into how busy this area would be. IMO the convention center way too over build and not integrated with Chinatown. The shops are never open on the Convention side and you don't see Asian business opening there. We are lucky to even get the convention center filled 4-5 days in a month. We don't have a WNBA team, we don't have an esports team so all of the tenants is just speculation.
The roundhouse is not a great piece of development and good luck finding a developer who wants to redevelop that building. 676 straight up ruined all those neighborhoods.

The arena could be good but we already have a convention center that barely is busy 15 days in a whole month.
Having the arena with no master plan won't revive Market east.

The only reason why this could be good is you are replacing a dying mall. But you have too question is it better than rebuilding a whole block to have mixed use towers and space for a park
     
     
  #23196  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 7:37 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
they just put like $200m into the FDP and at the end of the day they are all boxes. Replacing the recently rebuilt FDP with a new 18k seat box does not magically energize market street around the clock. I understand all the cool kids hate the FDP but calling it a dinosaur mall 3 years after a major renovation sounds absolutely insane. And I dont care what anyone says the inside is actually nice and unrecognizable vs the gallery.

If you add up how many people visit the FDP vs how many the sixers arena will attract on 100 event nights a year Im not so sure the arena brings in more. FDP is open almost every day and surely employs far more people than the sixers arena will. I will repeat- just because individuals hate the FDP and dont like any of its stores does not mean NO ONE shops there. I could care less about most of the luxury brand stores that so many on here claim we need in order to validate Philadelphia but I would never say they shouldnt exist simply because I would never shop at any of them. There is virtually nothing for sale on Walnut that interests me or would get my dollars but Im all for having all these trendy clicks to bricks retailers open their stores even though they will mostly be empty in terms of foot traffic.
To address the bold...

It was a mistake not to demolish the mall in 2018. A poorly planned and researched project from the start, most of us predicted it. So it's not insane to suggest the mall be torn down and replaced with a mixed-use plan like across the street. I figured you would at least agree with that idea... I also didn't say anything negative about the retailer offerings in the mall.

Your next statement is anecdotal. Show me stats on those claims... Also, if the Sixers take the approach of TD Garden in Boston and anchor the arena and area with hotels, entertainment, retail, food, etc., it will certainly add plenty of jobs and activity. They could even add the current retailers into the arena plan. I spent time around TD Garden this summer and the area was energized with or without the arena in use.
I agree it's about a greater plan for the area, not just plopping down an arena (3rd time I've said that...), but at the end of the day, we have a laggard stretch of Market Street that is getting worse each month and a transformational proposal on the table... We stick with the status quo, wait for something different, or work with this plan for a solid outcome... But at this point we can agree to disagree on our preferred plans for Market East.

"Couldn't care less".

They weren't empty when I walked by.

Last edited by PHLtoNYC; Jan 14, 2023 at 7:50 PM.
     
     
  #23197  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2023, 8:37 PM
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Gatorade_Jim Gatorade_Jim is offline
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
To address the bold...

It was a mistake not to demolish the mall in 2018. A poorly planned and researched project from the start, most of us predicted it. So it's not insane to suggest the mall be torn down and replaced with a mixed-use plan like across the street. I figured you would at least agree with that idea... I also didn't say anything negative about the retailer offerings in the mall.

Your next statement is anecdotal. Show me stats on those claims... Also, if the Sixers take the approach of TD Garden in Boston and anchor the arena and area with hotels, entertainment, retail, food, etc., it will certainly add plenty of jobs and activity. They could even add the current retailers into the arena plan. I spent time around TD Garden this summer and the area was energized with or without the arena in use.
I agree it's about a greater plan for the area, not just plopping down an arena (3rd time I've said that...), but at the end of the day, we have a laggard stretch of Market Street that is getting worse each month and a transformational proposal on the table... We stick with the status quo, wait for something different, or work with this plan for a solid outcome... But at this point we can agree to disagree on our preferred plans for Market East.

"Couldn't care less".

They weren't empty when I walked by.
Yeah TD Garden is a great comparison. I've always really loved what Boston was able to do there. I wish the towers were taller in that area, but I think Philly could improve on that aspect considering we don't have an airport so close to our downtown core.

I also think it's important to consider this from the 76ers point of view too. They're coming into a failing area with well over a billion dollars in private capital, no public financing, and all of their game/event revenue on the line. What better bet to make for Market East than tying its success to the success of the ownership enterprise of a major NBA team. That level of investment and faith in our city means something and I don't think some people appreciate that.

Last edited by Gatorade_Jim; Jan 14, 2023 at 8:53 PM.
     
     
  #23198  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2023, 9:39 PM
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SEFTA SEFTA is offline
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Last edited by SEFTA; Jan 16, 2023 at 6:43 AM.
     
     
  #23199  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2023, 9:52 PM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
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Sorry, pictures aren't great. The overbuild at 10th and Washington looks solid and does a good job at fitting into the area. I always like to see red brick.


     
     
  #23200  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2023, 2:42 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by AnEmperorPenguin View Post
I don't really understand your thought process here, to Clarke any development is the "gentrification" he's fighting, why is he going to agree to any big upzoning?
I don't think Clarke is going to part of any solution in Philadelphia. He's not fighting gentrification at all, he's fighting for the special interests that fund his campaigns.

My point is simply that the people in this city who care about gentrification and displacement are a real and sizable demographic. Just because they support Clarke now and his worthless gentrification "solutions" doesn't mean they always will.

There is an opportunity for someone to address their concerns in a way that will actually help them. Rent Control to ensure no one is displaced and zoning reform to ensure we can build enough to house everyone coming in seems like a message that could appeal to many.

Is this actually something that will happen? Probably not. But I wasn't predicting that this will happen, simply saying it would be good if it did.

Last edited by allovertown; Jan 16, 2023 at 3:03 AM.
     
     
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