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Originally Posted by pspeid
I've always been on the "open P & M" side, but I've tried to see if the "keep it closed" side had any valid arguments, and reduce the "demonizing" and sarcasm that tends to dominate the discussion.
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As much as it seems people on this forum have tried to demonize me for not supporting the incomplete proposal to open Portage and Main, I have never been fully opposed to it.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
0Would there be traffic chaos? Studies have been done that show there would be delays during peak traffic periods, sometimes in several minutes depending on the direction drivers are taking-likely true
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The challenge is those "peak times" is basically around 6 am to 6 pm when there isn't an event on at Canada Life Centre and can push back to close to midnight when there is an event. Also Winnipeg Transit, who has to be considered a local authority on traffic, said opening the intersection would have a significant delay on their whole network requiring more busses and operators to offset.
Would a complete, city-wide rapid transit network solve those issues? Likely.
Would such a city-wide rapid transit network be in place for the previously proposed opening timeline? Not a chance.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
Would there be hazards to pedestrians? I would think any time that pedestrians and auto traffic cross paths there will be an increase in danger of accident-likely true
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True story, I have crosses Main just past the barriers and it isn't something that is overly fun to do. As I have said many times before the discussion on opening Portage and Main to pedestrians needs to look at the origin and destination of these would be pedestrians crossing there. It is hard to ignore that one block south, one block north and one block west of the intersection there are already at-grade pedestrian crossing. There is also extremely limited directly east-west pedestrian traffic outside of hotel guests. Also the limited undeveloped space between the east side of Main St and the CN line truly limits new development. So even if it was opened today there would be very few pedestrians.
And the terms of the hazard, another true story is I needed to cross Portage at Fort heading north. Having done it many times I know as a pedestrian I have right of way but I also know there is pretty much always traffic turning left from Fort onto Portage. I had my head on a swivel looking for cars wanting to cross into my space but someone staying at the Fairmont wanting to walk across Portage and Main isn't going to have that same level of insight. And sure enough as I was crossing Fort I saw a firetruck coming up the street. Not overly noteworthy but when I come back about 10 minutes later sure enough that truck was coming to attend to an accident scene at that very corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspeid
Do a majority of Winnipeggers oppose opening P & M? Apparently they do-true.
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Actually I think you have have misread that vote. There is a small and highly vocal group that wants the intersection open, quite possibly as the stand to benefit financially such as property owner, people that will do renovations to the builds, architects, etc. There is an equally small group that opposes opening Portage and Main. Not sure who they are. Then the vast majority of the people fall into the indifferent camp that don't want the status quo to change if any taxpayer money is involved, and that would include needing the expand the Transit fleet to deal with traffic delays.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
Traffic chaos-some people will find alternate routes/delays will only happen at the busiest times/ the delays are not that long-some fact, some speculation.
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Already touched on this some but it is getting close to P&M being busy 24/7.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
Safety-every intersection has the same dangers/there are more dangerous intersections in the city/ drivers and pedestrians have to be careful-hopeful speculation
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The more lanes of traffic in an intersection the more dangerous it is for a pedestrian. The distance from the northeast corner to the first vehicle on the southwest corner lined up to make a conflicting left turn is fairly far and it is easy for that pedestrian to get missed. Worse the first couple of vehicles can likely make the turn without a conflict and by then the third vehicle could not even be aware a pedestrian is about to cross their intended path of travel.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
Expense-the barriers have to be removed for underground repairs anyway- fact
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Removing the barriers does not mean they need to be replaced with permanent barriers. Temporary concrete Jersey barriers could be put in place after the repairs while the other pre-conditions to a full opening a met, such as completing the city-wide rapid transit network and the inner ring road network.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
Majority rules?-the majority only represents people who briefly pass through P & M/most people in the immediate area want P & M open-apparently fact
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And that is where I
strongly disagree with the open group. I have spent most of my working life in the shadows of Portage and Main. And I know lots of others in similar positions. I have literally walked all over downtown, the Exchange, to HSC, etc and its been extremely limited the number of times Portage and Main being closed was ever an issue where we would have intentionally crossed at that intersection instead of another at grade crossing.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
Of these, the "cost" argument seems the most compelling, even overwhelming, in favour of the "open" side. The barriers will apparently have to be removed to make repairs below ground, and some will probably will have to stay down for the proposed BRT routes. There will be traffic delays/re-routing while the construction is going on, and this will most likely result in drivers and busses adopting alternate routes that a number will keep using after P & M is open.
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On the cost side all I have ever seen from the open folks is we need to spend money, why spend more money building new barriers. They offer zero discussion on what should be done with the existing circus and what costs may be related to that.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
I'd like to add one more thing to the "open" side-vision. An open P & M is a piece (yes just a piece, it's not a magic bullet) of what I hope will eventually become a walkable and hopefully fairly vibrant downtown; one with a strong residential base, safe streets and pleasing street-scapes.
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As I covered earlier in my reply I literally was walking downtown in this area today. Even in the most utopian version of a future downtown Winnipeg nothing is going to change that we have -27 days like today where no one wants to be outside. That more than anything else is what keeps Winnipeg from having an a truly walkable downtown as it forces people to find alternatives to walking several blocks on the street in winter.
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Originally Posted by pspeid
It confuses me that so many of the people opposed to opening P & M also seem to want to see the same thing. I don't understand how keeping P & M closed can do anything but contribute to the downtown conditions that so many of us bemoan in our posts. I would there isn't a contingent of people here who want to see the downtown fail, though sometimes it's difficult for me to come to any other conclusion.
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For me it is more indifference to opening P&M and truly asking how it will make downtown better. The fact is we are talking about one block of downtown with about six buildings and minimal destination or origin traffic to the rest of downtown. Opening P&M will never change that.