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  #21  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 9:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Bill Clinton set the stage for the 08-09 crash in his push to increase low income/minority ownership. There were other factors as well (especially all of the spec vacation condo construction), but the people pushing improved low income/minority home ownership are too young to remember that what it took to make it possible led to the biggest economic crisis in almost 100 years.

Meanwhile, since Clinton left office 23 years ago, the US has continued to attract tons of immigrants from South and East Asia who not only quickly became home owners but also landlords. So the face of the mysterious evil landlord has changed in the United States.
it's definitely not as simple as you put it. do you really think there aren't enough American-born minorities with enough capital and excellent credit who have wanted to own a gas station for example? there are a couple obvious reasons why gas station owners seem to fall under certain groups no matter where in the country they are located.

and it is foolish to only blame Clinton because although he was a part of it, pretty much all of government and "private" institutions (banks) had a role, even when Clinton was out. Bush sure didnt try stopping it. it was a money grab by the powers that be, and it pushed more Americans to rely on the government as planned

there is a reason why they shut down occupy wall street so fast. 10 years since then see where we are now. not good at all

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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
No, that's not the only thing that happened. It completely distorted the housing market. Even people who were not buying homes with ARMs were paying inflated prices and found themselves underwater with their traditional mortgages once the bottom fell out. There were also people that refinanced the homes they owned before the bubble, and also found themselves affected. And, to a point that jmecklenborg was making above, it fueled a construction boom that sucked people out of cities in some slower growing metros.
but did these people have the right capital/downpayment before going into those ARM deals? I don't think so. people this time around were putting down way more cash than the 00s crash which was far more credit based.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:01 PM
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If someone can't afford to contribute to their 401k then they probably shouldn't own a house. Everybody should be contributing to their 401k before they go looking to buy a house.
Depends on your income. My grandparents generated more wealth from their home than any savings or retirement. If you don't make a lot, you're probably not going to have much by the time you retire. A 100k doesn't go very far but buying a modest house and spreading the mortgage over 15-30 years is pretty accessible and likely will result in a bigger investment over time.

It's also why many in the black community are further behind the 8 ball in wealth accumulation due to their grandparents/ great-grandparents not having equity to pass on.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:11 PM
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The people that say owning a home is a great investment are the same ones that take offense to someone owning an investment home. Those evil "outside" investors!
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  #24  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Depends on your income. My grandparents generated more wealth from their home than any savings or retirement.
Mine generated none whatsoever from their primary residences. One side sold their condo in 2011 for $50k less than they bought it for in 1987. The other side broke even because they sold around 2015, and by break even, I of course mean recovered the dollar amount, uncorrected for inflation.

Nearly all of the money they saved during their lifetimes was devoured by high nursing home and medical costs in their last 5~ years. Almost no money was passed on to any individual, since the family is large.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
The people that say owning a home is a great investment are the same ones that take offense to someone owning an investment home. Those evil "outside" investors!
there is clear difference between one family owning a single home, and an investor owning 100 and upmarking rent by 10% annually. there should be caps on investors owning property, especially foreign ones. thats the only way to fix the ownership issue outside of wages increasing with inflation and promoting better savings habits earlier on in schools, so they can buy homes or whatever else they want later.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:27 PM
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I blame the city of Asheville for this. They could have nipped that in the bud but the revenue from rising property values and short-term rental taxes are probably worth it for them rather than accessibility. New Orleans clamped down on this.
Sorry to disappoint but you'll have to blame the state of North Carolina, which is hostile to its urban areas, urban dwellers, and restricts how cities themselves can restrict development.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:35 PM
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^ Don't cities handle zoning and land use regulations? That is unless the state passed legislation overruling city ordinances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Mine generated none whatsoever from their primary residences. One side sold their condo in 2011 for $50k less than they bought it for in 1987. The other side broke even because they sold around 2015, and by break even, I of course mean recovered the dollar amount, uncorrected for inflation.

Nearly all of the money they saved during their lifetimes was devoured by high nursing home and medical costs in their last 5~ years. Almost no money was passed on to any individual, since the family is large.
There's always that risk but that's true with any investment. My paternal grandfather retired a few years before the financial crisis in 2008 and within a year, lost half of his retirement and died two years later. He still left my grandmother with a sizable chunk but that was eaten up by her assisted living and she had to be moved to a nursing home because she ran out of money otherwise, she could have lived out her life in assisted living.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
there is clear difference between one family owning a single home, and an investor owning 100 and upmarking rent by 10% annually. there should be caps on investors owning property, especially foreign ones. thats the only way to fix the ownership issue outside of wages increasing with inflation and promoting better savings habits earlier on in schools, so they can buy homes or whatever else they want later.
So make it illegal for the family that owns the property to sell it to an investor? How is that fair to the family that wants to sell their home for top dollar? Just throw property rights out the window because you can't afford to buy a home in the neighborhood you want?
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  #29  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:37 PM
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Homeownership is not really on my radar, tbh.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:45 PM
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Personally, I have benefited from owning multiple properties. I bought my first place (1B condo in Denver) in 2018 and am not renting it out. Needless to say I have a nice cushion of equity on the place that is slowly growing.

I bought a 2bed condo a year ago here in Chicago, and am renting my second bedroom out. Again, slowly building up equity on this property at the same time. This doesn't preclude me from doing normal 401k or side Robinhood investments..... And that's the point. It's not always an either/or thing. Most folks who own a home/condo ALSO are contributing to other traditional investments.

I think the solution will be some sort of a balancing act. You can't forbid any investors from buying up a property and renting it out, but there should be some limits, especially if construction to match demand for folks who want to own their own place isn't keeping up. Otherwise, you will most certainly get a "You will own nothing and like it" scenario, which I don't want.

On a micro level, one can certainly do things locally. Here in Chicago, it's pretty common for HOAs to have caps on how many condos can be rented out. I think most HOAs also forbid AirBnBs. That doesn't really help with SFH or 2/3 flats, but it does help buffer for folks who want to own a condo.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 10:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Depends on your income. My grandparents generated more wealth from their home than any savings or retirement. If you don't make a lot, you're probably not going to have much by the time you retire. A 100k doesn't go very far but buying a modest house and spreading the mortgage over 15-30 years is pretty accessible and likely will result in a bigger investment over time.
Your grandparents most likely worked jobs with employer provided pensions, but that doesn't exist for most people in this era (unless you work for the government). Nobody in the modern era should be buying a house without contributing to their retirement savings.

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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
It's also why many in the black community are further behind the 8 ball in wealth accumulation due to their grandparents/ great-grandparents not having equity to pass on.
That isn't because there weren't black homeowners. It's because, due to systematic racism, black homeowners weren't able to pass along equity to their descendants.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I think most HOAs also forbid AirBnBs. That doesn't really help with SFH or 2/3 flats,
The unit upstairs from us in our three 3-flat was put on the market last fall and a couple of buyers inquired if short-term rentals were allowed or not, to which we replied, "if they aren't already precluded by our condo bylaws, we will promptly change them to make it so".

The seller's real estate agent got the message and we ended up with wonderful new owner-occupier neighbors upstairs from us.

Nobody in their right mind would want AirBnB bullshit in their building.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 24, 2023 at 11:38 PM.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 11:13 PM
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^ Don't cities handle zoning and land use regulations? That is unless the state passed legislation overruling city ordinances.
The state forbids rent controls, outright bans on short-term rentals, and affordable housing quotas.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2023, 11:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
So make it illegal for the family that owns the property to sell it to an investor? How is that fair to the family that wants to sell their home for top dollar? Just throw property rights out the window because you can't afford to buy a home in the neighborhood you want?
Zoning already erodes property rights. As it is we already have tons of laws regulating economic behavior where the right of an individual to maximize profits is curbed to protect the greater interest of society as a whole. Most people aren't libertarian purists when it comes to economic and financial laws. We give up pieces of our freedom so that we can live in a functional society.

Laws preventing Wall Street from becoming America's landlord are probably something most people could be sold on if they think it would be good for the community writ large.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 12:12 AM
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Zoning already erodes property rights. As it is we already have tons of laws regulating economic behavior where the right of an individual to maximize profits is curbed to protect the greater interest of society as a whole. Most people aren't libertarian purists when it comes to economic and financial laws. We give up pieces of our freedom so that we can live in a functional society.

Laws preventing Wall Street from becoming America's landlord are probably something most people could be sold on if they think it would be good for the community writ large.
Yep, and that zoning is arguably one of the leading drivers for the lack of new low to middle income housing. Through overly onerous zoning we've made it all but illegal to build anything but luxury housing in many places.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Kngkyle View Post
Yep, and that zoning is arguably one of the leading drivers for the lack of new low to middle income housing. Through overly onerous zoning we've made it all but illegal to build anything but luxury housing in many places.
We have also made it illegal to build factories in residential neighborhoods.

So if we banned Wall Street from becoming a major landlord would that be an onerous regulation or a responsible one?

The knock on consequences matter. I would suggest that Wall Street money distorts the market in ways that hurt society in the long run. If current homeowners get a big check when they sell but new homebuyers are locked out of the market then in 30 or 40 years we may have a market where everyone rents from Wall Street because the younger generations were never able to afford their first house.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Trae View Post
there is clear difference between one family owning a single home, and an investor owning 100 and upmarking rent by 10% annually. there should be caps on investors owning property, especially foreign ones. thats the only way to fix the ownership issue outside of wages increasing with inflation and promoting better savings habits earlier on in schools, so they can buy homes or whatever else they want later.
There definitely should be a cap (or ban) for investors and a ban for foreign entities owning US property. These non-citizens are denying Americans the right to own property and even exploiting them through rent.
If US investors want to own or have shares in apartments or buildings, that seems fine. Owning individual homes or properties? Hell naw.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 12:43 AM
Kngkyle Kngkyle is offline
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We have also made it illegal to build factories in residential neighborhoods.

So if we banned Wall Street from becoming a major landlord would that be an onerous regulation or a responsible one?

The knock on consequences matter. I would suggest that Wall Street money distorts the market in ways that hurt society in the long run. If current homeowners get a big check when they sell but new homebuyers are locked out of the market then in 30 or 40 years we may have a market where everyone rents from Wall Street because the younger generations were never able to afford their first house.
Why is "Wall Street" some fictional bogeyman to you? Everyone who has a 401k is "Wall Street".

I'd be interested to see what % of rental SFHs are owned by large corporations vs small time investors such as twister who are merely supplementing their W-2 income with some rental income. Your article is headlined "Big Corporations" but then only refers to "investors" and "LLCs" as if those are "Big Corporations"... they're not the same thing... at all. Most LLCs are mom and pop shops...

And yes, zoning made sense when it was originally created to separate incompatible land uses such as industrial and residential. But zoning today has gone so far beyond that to such an extreme that it's significantly hampering the development of the affordable housing you are seeking. Instead of fixing the core problem you are instead attacking an irrelevant bogeyman.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 1:38 AM
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There definitely should be a cap (or ban) for investors and a ban for foreign entities owning US property. These non-citizens are denying Americans the right to own property and even exploiting them through rent.
Agree about the foreigners. Not sure how an investor would be defined, in this case.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 1:52 AM
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Here in KC there are so many people and institutions buying houses for AirBnB's that the city is starting to discuss regulating them. Some entire blocks have been bought up for them. Lots of people stay in them for nefarious reasons and creates lots of problems for the neighborhoods they're in.
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