Irish Boston, Italian Philadelphia

[edale]

Originally Posted by Docere

Is the term "WASP" really used outside the Northeast?

It seems to mainly used in places where there's stronger ethnic identities and distinctions among whites.

No need to use the term in say, Atlanta, Charlotte or Nashville where the majority of whites meet the description.

Growing up in Cincinnati, people used WASP or WASPy to describe "old money" white people. Germans and Irish are the dominant white ethnic groups, and the vast majority of whites in the city are Catholic. So the term really just referred to preppy, stuffy, old money, 'blue book' types more than the literal definition of WASP.

[Docere]

Digby Baltzell, the sociologist credited for popularizing the term "WASP" (he was from the Philadelphia elite), had a book called Puritan Boston and Quaker Philadelphia. His argument was that the Boston elite (the Boston Brahmins) was much more influential, status-conscious and "elitist" while Philadelphia's elite was less distinguished and more egalitarian in outlook, essentially.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Docere

The term is redundant there as there are no meaningful ethnic distinctions among whites in Nashville. The vast majority are white Southerners of British ancestry and Protestant religion.

I think there are no meaningful ethnic distinctions in Nashville because is an Evangelical City. It is probably the most powerful seat of Evangelicism in the country...and perhaps the only major center of commerce in this country that has Southern Baptists front and center in its ruling class.

It might not look meaningful to somebody in Nashville as there is a homogeny among white elites. And it might not look different to an outsider riding around Franklin or Belle Meade because it just looks rich and white, but culturally, those places and the affluent suburbs of the northeastern cities are extremely different. The ruling class in Nashville doesn't value the same things as the ruling class in most Northeastern cities and for that reason alone I don't think of them as being the same. Nashville is in a league of its own.

But sure yeah, it looks WASPY.

[Shawn]

WASP stopped meaning English/Scots Irish in New England a long time ago. It's been used to mean "old white money with influence" since at least when my grandparents were young in the 30s. The most "WASPy" group in Massachusetts has long been white collar Irish Catholics, who emulated their English counterparts early on as a means of getting ahead.

I am serious when I tell you "Don't be fucking WASP" was commonly said by the more blue collar cousins to the more white collar cousins basically every time we all got together. I'm pretty sure something to that effect is in Good Will Hunting too.

Not that it matters, but real New England WASPs would *never* consider Baptists from Nashville to be WASP-peers. New England WASPs view Evangelicals with more skepticism than they do Catholics, whom they've lived next to (and been governed by) for a good 150 years now.

[Docere]

From the Pew religious landscape study

White Catholics

Boston 24%
Chicago 22%
Philadelphia 22%
New York 19%

White Mainline Protestants

Philadelphia 14%
Boston 13%* (including nonwhite)
Chicago 8%
New York 5%


Boston is significantly more nonreligious (34%) than the other three (22-24%) though. Only about a third of Boston area whites identify as Catholic, compared to about 40% in Chicago and New York.

Most common mainline Protestant denomination is Lutheran in Chicago, Methodist in Philadelphia, Congregational in Boston. No mainline group is more than 1% in NYC metro area.

[Crawford]

While NYC is the city most associated with Eastern Establishment norms, it's probably numerically the least WASP U.S. metro.

NYC did have an Uber-WASP mayor in the 1960's-1970's, however. John Lindsay was a WASP from central casting (tall, blue-eyed, Yale-educated, athlete, investment banker, descended from affluent English and Dutch 17th century immigrants).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by edale

Growing up in Cincinnati, people used WASP or WASPy to describe "old money" white people. ... So the term really just referred to preppy, stuffy, old money, 'blue book' types more than the literal definition of WASP.

Same in Detroit. But there was a strong overlap between "old money" and non-Catholic whites in Detroit. Most of the legacy auto industry money was held by protestant families.

[Crawford]

For Metro Detroit, Birmingham, Bloomfield and the Pointes were the typical WASP fiefdoms. Even today, the grandest religious edifices are WASP. Christ Church Cranbrook and Kirk in the Hills for Birmingham-Bloomfield, and Christ Church in the Pointes. Nowadays, the west-of-Woodward portion of Birmingham-Bloomfield is heavily Jewish, and the Pointes are heavily Catholic.

I'm pretty sure Palmer Woods and Sherwood Forest (wealthy Detroit proper neighborhoods) were WASPy, with few Catholics or Jews, until the 1960's, and few blacks until the mid-1970's or so. Neighboring University District was always Catholic, however.

[mrnyc]

the checklist of nyc wasps via town&country magazine —


10 Signs You Know You're a WASP:


1.) The bartender at PJ Clarke'sknows how you take your G&T.

2.) Your ancestors came over on the Mayflower.

3.) A box of Triscuits is your idea of a lavish buffet.

4.) Slim Aarons took your parents' family Christmas card photo.

5.) Someone in your family took a gap year—or two.

6.) Your name is Elizabeth, but everyone calls you Bitsy.

7.) You have a great forehand, a record erg time, and were the captain of your boarding school lacrosse team.

8.) A character in a Whit Stillman film is modeled after a member of your family.

9.) You think of the five boroughs as the Upper East Side, Greenwich, Bedford, Locust Valley, and Far Hills.

10.) Your family has had a subscription to T&C for as long as you can remember

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

While NYC is the city most associated with Eastern Establishment norms, it's probably numerically the least WASP U.S. metro.

Yup. About half of NYC area whites are Italian American or Jewish. WASPs are a small minority in the region.

NYC did have an Uber-WASP mayor in the 1960's-1970's, however. John Lindsay was a WASP from central casting (tall, blue-eyed, Yale-educated, athlete, investment banker, descended from affluent English and Dutch 17th century immigrants).

A liberal Republican who later became a Democratic congressman. Kind of a forerunner to today.

[Docere]

New York

Italian 2,164,967 11%
Irish 1,686,529 8.4%
German 1,123,462 5.7%
American 768,512 3.9%
Polish 663,941 3.4%
English 610,442 3.1%

[TempleGuy1000]

Italians had better food and architecture lol. It's that simple

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

the checklist of nyc wasps via town&country magazine —


10 Signs You Know You're a WASP:


1.) The bartender at PJ Clarke'sknows how you take your G&T.

Does this only apply to the original location? Also, PJC was ironically started by an Irish immigrant.

Originally Posted by mrnyc

2.) Your ancestors came over on the Mayflower.

Angela Davis is a WASP lol.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Does this only apply to the original location? Also, PJC was ironically started by an Irish immigrant.

my good man, you didn’t think a wasp would run a … common bar did you?

[Docere]

The term "WASP" seems to have mainly applied to high-status, mainline Protestants (especially Episcopalians but also Presbyterians and Congregationalists) who have British and/or colonial ancestry.

It does mainly apply in the Northeast, where they're a minority of the population that's generally high status and they're outnumbered by white ethnic Catholics and Jews.

In the South, the white population is almost all "Anglo Saxon" and it makes no sense to talk about "WASPs." The differences among whites would be class and to some extent (I think) religion (Southern elites are more likely to be mainline Protestant than the general white population, but even still many of them are evangelical, and I'm sure Methodists and Episcopalians in the South are quite a bit more conservative than in the North too).

The Midwest is more of a mixed picture. One thing everywhere in the Midwest has in common is high German ancestry, a group that don't fall under the "white ethnic" banner. The Midwest is also less status/prestige-conscious than the Northeast. In some cities you do have a large Catholic "white ethnic" population (Chicago, Cleveland), though much more Slavic than in the Northeast.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by edale

I don't think of either as being big hubs of Jews, even though large communities exist in both places.

Indeed while both Boston and Philly are major Jewish centers, they're overshadowed by NYC. I don't think as one being more Jewish than the other, and indeed proportions and numbers are very similar.

[pj3000]

Damn… the exact same WASP conversation we’ve had on here since 2008

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Damn… the exact same WASP conversation we’ve had on here since 2008

right? What is a WASP is track 3 on the SSP greatest hits album!

[Docere]

Episcopalians

Boston 2%
New York 1%
Philadelphia 2%
Washington 4%

Guess it makes sense DC is highest. It's more Protestant than the old Northeast core, has almost no WWC and Episcopalians have an elite status in both the North and South.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

right? What is a WASP is track 3 on the SSP greatest hits album!

Track 3 is on heavy rotation over the past year